Messer, Bauerwehr, Hauswehr? -- myArmoury.com

Jason Elrod · Posted: Sat 08 Mar, 2008 2:26 pm Post subject: Messer, Bauerwehr, Hauswehr?

Can anyone explain the difference between these 3 weapons to me?

Arne Focke · Industry Professional

I would say that there is none. Just different words to describe the same thing.

Of course, a little excourse into the German language, "Messer" also just means knife.
A "Bauernwehr" is mostly just a bigger knife, or other similar blade, used by a farmer to defend his home.
A "Hauswehr" is, like the name implies, also used to defend your house.

James R.Fox · Posted: Sat 08 Mar, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject:

Arne- thanks for the lession. the old people stoppped speaking German at home with my mothers parents, I barely remember enough to guess at the words. I'm german farmer on one side and scotts border bandit on the other.

Arne Focke · Industry Professional

Sounds like a healthy mix. Big Grin

George Hill · Posted: Sat 08 Mar, 2008 8:55 pm Post subject:

James R.Fox · Posted: Sat 08 Mar, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject:

Ja George-long enough I can call it a twa-handit messer Happy

Andreas Auer · Posted: Mon 10 Mar, 2008 2:51 am Post subject:

Hi !

As farmers were not allowed to carrie Swords, they were allowed to carry a knife("Messer") with just one edge. As Farmers or times were, they needed (or thought they needed) bigger and bigger knifes as time went by. this evolved from simple ca.20cm long crude knifes to the thing we call "Langes Messer" or "Long Knife" in the 16.century.
as the "Landsknechte" were often Farmers, or countryside Folks (sorry about this term) this "Lange Messer" became very popular in the later 15.cent. among most civilians.

Andreas

Peter Grassmann · Posted: Tue 18 Mar, 2008 8:48 am Post subject:

There is no common distinction between the three weapons, as historians haven't spent much time on research for them. The original, historical terms vary greatly, so we don't have much use for them nowadays (for example, "Messer" could mean dagger, knife or sabre in medieval times).
However, after having spent much time on research, the most logical (though modern) distinction is - in my opinion - the following:

Messer: sword-length weapon (>80 cm) with a riveted tang and a crossguard.
Bauernwehr: originally a single edged dagger that looked like a great knife with a riveted tang and, since the late 15th century, a parrier called "Knebel" in German (I don't know the english term for it). They could reach lengths up to 80 cms and more. Bauernwehren almost never have a crossguard. I think they have been developed from riveted knifes that became common in the 14th century in middle Europe.
"Bauernwehr" literally means "farmer's weapon", but they were not only used by farmers. Many have been found on castles, which means they were used as weapons by the militia.
Hauswehr: this term means "a weapon to defend a house with". When historical documents speak of "Hauswehren", they often mean any kind of weapon that one could defend his house with (in later times even fireguns). It is often used synonymous with "Bauernwehr". Another term for it is "Rugger".

You have to see all those weapons in a greater context. Since the beginning of the late middle ages, riveted knives became more and more common. A lot of weapons developed from these knives; the Bauernwehren and (Lange) Messer are just two of them, but there are many more (for example hunting knives and daggers). That's why it's so difficult to distinct between the terms: There are just too many weapons from this "family". I call this family "Griffzungenwaffen" (riveted weapons), which share three features:
1. they are single edged
2. they have a riveted tang
3. they have an asymmetrical handle.

Christopher Gregg · Posted: Tue 18 Mar, 2008 9:27 am Post subject: Messer, etc.

Peter,

Your English is very good, and thank you very much for all your insight! Happy

Andreas Auer · Posted: Tue 18 Mar, 2008 9:50 am Post subject:

Vaclav Homan · Posted: Tue 18 Mar, 2008 12:32 pm Post subject:

In old Czech was one basic term Tesák for this three words.

In Peter terminology is Tschechische Dusseke or Dussak (czech knife) not Messer but not Bauermesser.
And is there archaeological evidence in europa.
I know one finding. In recent years there is idea: Tschechische Dusak was primarily for practise fenging (very common in fechtbuecher).

Greatest Fechtmaister with Messer was Hanz Lekuechner.

Jean Henri Chandler · Posted: Tue 18 Mar, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject:

Peter Grassmann · Posted: Wed 19 Mar, 2008 3:41 am Post subject:

Jean Henri Chandler · Posted: Wed 19 Mar, 2008 7:14 am Post subject:

Vaclav Homan · Posted: Wed 19 Mar, 2008 9:57 am Post subject:

[/img]http://www.repliky.info/Cesky-tesak-foto-detail-2808.html
Tschechische Dusak have been inspired in Poland or Ungarn in 15 century. We have other terminology, falcion is specifical type, haus messer 20 cm, messer (tesák) 20-50 cm, long messer 50cm, messer for one and half hand.

W. Schütz · Industry Professional

Im gathering info on sidearms, specifically messers/big knives in the 14th cen and very early 15th, so if anyone has some documentation and/or info on the subject feel free to share.