I have weapons from the Philippines, Indonesia, China, Borneo and a few others. Any interest about pieces like these?

Philippine kris from Sulu, late 1800s

---

 Attachment: 46.48 KB



 Attachment: 33.53 KB

Bill,

I am truly starting to believe that someone could put up a picture of a steak knife here and get a discussion going about it.
I'm not an old-timer here by any stretch of the imagination but I have seen spirited "discussions" about things that I hadn't previously known existed! :lol:

You'll see that people are drawn here for various reasons, some are reenactors, some practice Western Martial Arts, some are collectors, some own swords, some do not. I seem to get caught up or drawn into the history of a given piece or the significance of an event with which it would be associated. I'm just one of many members here but please post pictures of swords you own or that interest you. You may be surprised at what discussion will result.

That Kris is a stunning piece, strange and beautiful. I'm going to ask a question and I don't really have the vocabulary for it. On the top of the wooden piece that would be a crossguard on a European sword there seems to be what looks like a little metal ring, what is it? What is it for? Do you have any history of the piece or of what was happening in the Phillipines at that time?

Ken Speed

Bill,

Sorry, its a metal ring on the top of the blade.

Ken

Apart from the fact that it's a beautiful piece to look at I wonder how one would hold it and not have the " pommel " carving get in the way ?

As Ken mentioned we here have a whole spectrum of reasons to like swords or other weapons that overlap in many strange ways: In addition to all the historical and cultural things that interest me I always am curious about design choices that affect usability and what are good structural/materials design choices combined with aesthetics.

Oh, and Ken is correct that we can find stuff to say about just about anything including a kitchen knife.

Bill: Welcome to the site and feel free to post pics of anything weapons related that you wish. The focus on Medieval European weapons is just that many here are interested in that period and place but the site is open to most any weapons related subject related to history or design/aesthetics.

Bill, that's a beautiful Kris.

It's from the Phillipines? It's amazing how far the Kris spread through the islands isn't it? It doesn't have a very sharp point like so many other Kris, and it appears the blade is more suited to cutting, whereas the majority of Kris seem to be almost exclusively for stabbing. The pommel on this one is very distinctive. And the scabbard is beautiful, far more so than the majority of Kris scabbards. Does the blade turn on the handle?

A slightly unrelated question... Do you know a system for the use of a Kris? For the life of me, I can't figure out how Pencjak Silat could be converted to the use of one, although apparently it is a very popular (the most popular, perhaps?) weapon for Silat exponents.

Do you have any background for your Kris? Age, maker, any blessings or curses placed on it? The reason I ask this is that there are often special, and shocking powers attributed to Kris, especially in Indonesia, and especially in Java. I've heard that Kris are so revered there that you can send your Kris to your own wedding in your place, and that counts as showing up.

I'm thinking of getting a little holder for mine for my desk at work... Haha!

I might get told off for this... But seeing as we have someone else with an interest in Kris, I'm wondering if you could have a look at the following Kris for sale and give me your critique. It's Sumatran, from 1900. It has the more common handle shape, finely carved, and a very nice, albeit rather mistreated blade. Tell me what you think. It's not for me, it's for a gift to a dear Indonesian friend of mine, who had his 4 generation family Kris burgled from his home.

http://www.liongate-armsandarmour.com/bq1782a.html

I'll try to answer as many questions as possible! Wow! Good responses.

First, a Moro kris, though sharing similar form with the Indonesian and peninsular examples, is a very different animal. The tang is rectangular in cross section so that the handle will not turn when used. Nor is it easily removable, being held on with a pitch that must be heated to be removed. Also the "ring" that you mention is called an asang-asang. Actually a clamp with a metal strip that you can't see going under the hilt binding. This additionally holds the blade to the hilt.

These were much bigger than Indonesian keris. Blades were at least 20" (or more) in length, and much more substantial.

Moro/Philippine Kris like this were battle weapons and powerful slicing swords as well as talismans.

The Indonesian keris were talismans first and weapons second. Though they could do serious damage with a thrust, the tang, or pesci, is comparatively weak as it was made so the handle could easily be removed and the keris cleaned in yearly ceremonies.

The pommel is a huge piece of ivory. Carved in a shape called a "Jungayyan." Some say this looks like a cockatu bird or kakaktua. The sword you see here was made for a person of high rank and/or social status. While it is razor sharp and laminated steel, like most older Moro weapons, it is more likely a ceremonial piece. The pommel would get in the way in battle.

I couldn't really comment on Lionsgate keris except to say this is from Sumatra and very different than the kris I have pictured.

It is likely that the PI kris (as opposed to the Indonesian "keris") actually began in Java. Migrated up through Borneo and over to the PI Islands.. I collect these also though I am more familiar with Java, Bali and Madura.

As far as actual use, I know little about techniques. The Moro were a south PI group located around the Sulu and Mindanao. Fighting was usually done by ambush in heavy brush. Some had boats and operated as pirates. All were ferocious fighters. It is believed that the explorer, Magellan, was killed by a Filipino warrior with a longsword called a kampilan.

The Spanish fought the Philippine warriors for nearly 400 years and never conquered them. You may be aware that the US Army side weapon was a .38 cal revolver until we met the Moro/Filipino fighters during the Spanish-American war. Our .38 cartridge proved ineffective in stopping these small fighters and we went to the 45 ACP.

Like the much smaller Indonesian keris there is much mysticism surrounding the PI kris. Many believe that there is a spirit or Djinn inhabiting the blades. The pieces certainly have presence.

If you look carefully you will see a piece of metal between the blade and the handle. In Indonesian terms this is called a "gangya." In PI mythology it is said that a spirit is invited into the blade, then the gangya is slid down over the tang. Kind of like the cork in a bottle.

I enclose two PI Kris that were more battle weapons. Note the difference in the pommels. The first has a substantial handle and two of the asang-asang clamps. It is a straight blade. Some were straight and some had waves. It was a personal choice. If a blade had waves, it always was an odd number because kris and keris were considered male.

The second kris has a danagan pommel that is more common to kris, however it is uncommon to find the fragile pieces of wood still intact. Most were broken off.

---

 Attachment: 25.09 KB



 Attachment: 31.54 KB



 Attachment: 41.92 KB



 Attachment: 9.7 KB

As a Javanese who has been exposed to a lot of information on the keris in my daily life whether I'd like it or not, I can say that what Bill has written sounds right to me. Maybe the only thing I'd like to add is something about Ben's question regarding the use of the keris--I can't speak for the Filipino arts where the kris is a much more versatile and weaponlike tool, but in Java the basic technique for the keris is called "backstabbing." The weapon is worn in the small of the back, out of the opponent's sight, both for the sake of being courteous to people you like and being able to make an unexpected attack against somebody you don't like. Smile, shake hands, and stab. But, as Bill has mentioned, the Javanese keris is now much more of a ceremonial artifact than an actual weapon. Its actual use in assassination seemed to have been most prevalent in the medieval period, especially during the Singhasari empire where one such keris was repeatedly used to assassinate people at the top of the aristocratic hierarchy--and it would seem that at that time the keris was a somewhat different and sturdier weapon than the ceremonial object it is now.

That's a gorgeous kris. I have collected a few along with other Filipino edged weaponry such as Barongs, Punals, talibongs, etc. There are quite a few Filipino Martial Arts. The one I have learned is called Kali, which means blade in Tagalog. The Filipinos were quite sophisticated when it came to the combat arts. I believe they are among the best weapon practicioners around nowadays , their skill with the knife is amazing. At the Minnesota Kali Group, we study stick fighting, dagger, and the empty hand fighting that goes along with it. We have a large number of police officers because of the knife and stick classes. There are two books by a guy named Vic Hurley, who wrote them in the 1930's. Both can be read online since they aren't so easy to find. I paid $152.00 for my copy of Jungle Patrol, which is the story of the Phillipine Constabulary in the early 1900's. The other book is Swish of the Kris, which tells of the Spanish attempt to subjugate the Moros which they were never able to do. In fact the Spanish king eventually paid tribute to the Sultan of Sulu to get them to leave them alone. The only time in the Conquistadores history that that was done. There are some amazing stories about the experiences of the American Army in the Phillipines, some of the stories read better than any fiction you can find. A lot of the men who fought the Filipinos, were the old indian fighters who were transplanted from the southwest. That story about the reason for the development of the .45 automatic is true. Moro warriors fought to the death always. Many bodies were found after battles with multiple bullets in them. As a rule the only way to stop them was a head or heart shot. Once again, it's a fascinating part of US history and makes for some ripping good yarns. I highly recommend the two books.

question about the Silat blades....I heard somewhere that the smaller, sharply pointed kris was usually poisoned? Hopefully this question does not offend anybody (To western minds, a poisoned blade seems....well, "evil"....probably due to the victorian, stiff upper lip, good form ol' sport idealazation of chivalry)

To get Jungle Patrol, just go to google, type Jungle Patrol & it pops right up. Regards; Dan

Yeah. I've handled a few keris myself, so I'm quite familiar with the flimsy tang. I wonder if it might have been an intentional design feature?

BTW, what collection does that last keris belong to? I might have seen it, or maybe something very like it in a recent fair.

I heard something about the blades being poisoned again.....The history channels martial art show "human weapon"....You know the one where they got the little skinny kick boxer and the ex football player going country to country getting their buts whooped by differant martial art disciplines :D ....

No offense meant, but you got to admit when they have him sparring around with man mountain he looks alot smaller then his stats ;) .....I watched that silat episode again and they state that not only is the keris covered in a deadly neuro toxin....it is incorporated into the blade during forging... :eek: ..So most likely they are talking about the arsenic paste used for cleaning...good call guys!