[Dave Hahn]

Hi guys,

I'd appreciate if anyone could reference any makers of this type of armour (15th century) in the US. I did a search and understand that White Rose and another maker in Poland are available.

some questions, would the combination of a brig, kettle helm, and a gorget be historically plausible for a 15th century footsoldier?

i also understand that maille would not be worn underneath this particular harness.

any help would be appreciated!!

[Chuck Russell]

no gorget or "kettle", maybe a bever though. the helmet you would want is a chape de fer(sp?) sorta like a kettle but more fancier etc. and mail could have been worn with the brig. i believe the look would be late 15th century, say 1480s area.

as too USA suppliers i know of none. There was white rose, a guy in Poland and a gentleman in the Cheq Republic that made them but I can not off hand remember the names. Bob Reed made 2 or 3 from Craig Nader's assistance but they didn't sell any. And I believe Jeff Hedgecock made one for a museum, but not for resale as well. I think the problem is there is too much work for what people are willing to pay in US dollars. For a US craftsmen to complete one I think you'd be in the 2000+ range for resale, and not too many US buyers would make it worth the armorer's time. shame really. they are awesome pieces. I have a roll of spring steel to make mine. but my group never got the rivets ordered nor the tinning machine up and running to make them.

[Dave Hahn]

Hey thanks!

I probably should have cleaned up my verbage on the war hat and bevor (not kettle helm or gorget, sheesh).

I emailed white rose last night, do you have experience with this company? <never mind, I did a search> He is currently offerring brigandines in the 700 pounds range.

[William Knight]

Pretty sure the lower range is going to be a less historically rigorous brig. You'd get more historical accuracy for your buck with Bractea (the polish guy), probably, though the high-end White Rose brigs are lovely.
-Will

[James R.Fox]

Dave -if you want to save time and energy, check Museum Replicas/Windlass Steelcrafts They make a superb replica brigandine, which will cost less than your first born child.

[Bill Grandy]

[Dave Hahn]

i'm curious, is there a a large differential in protection between a coat of plates and a brigandine?

i wonder why CoP usage dropped in the 15th in favour of the brig.

[James R.Fox]

Dave A real fighting brigandine was made from heavy buckram canvas, and incorporated padding as well as the plates.which were about 1/8 in thick more or less depending on where located in the vest.It was meant to go over mail and gambeson as a substitute for a full cuirass, which many knights couldn't afford. Many knights and men- at-arms wore this plus arm and leg guards as full plate was Very expensive, since it had to be hand-fitted to the wearer to move and balance right.There are many good 1300-1400 illustrations of the men and how they looked. I may have mis-understood, I thought you wanted a replica.I agree, the MRL is a coat of plates if you get down to it The CoP was abandoned as too light, many of the first ones were just riveted to the surcoat.

[Dave Hahn]

Comparing historical examples of both, you can see that a CoP from Wisby is relatively comparable to that of a brig.

I'm probably just splitting hairs at this point though.

[Bill Grandy]

[Johan S. Moen]

[Sean Flynt]

Consider making one yourself. It may seem daunting, but it is essentially just a vest. There are photos online to show what these things look like "exploded," and you can use those, other research and experimentation with paper models to get a good pattern. Seems like the rivets would be the most time-consuming part (thus the HUGE price difference between a brigandine and a simple jack) but whether 2 rivets or 2,000, it's the same skill set. If you can set one rivet (which is very easy) you can set 1,000 or 10,000. It doesn't get harder as the number increases, just more time-consuming. The plates can be cut with shears and easily hammered or bent to shape. Assuming you have no tools or materials at all, I think you could get everything you'd need--anvil, drill and bit, hammer, rivets, fabric, steel--for less than $100 USD, and the tools will serve you through any number of future projects.

Disregard this post if you live in an apartment. If you start using a hammer and anvil in an apartment, you'd better finish this project quickly. You're going to need it.

[James Barker]

Dave

If you really want to do a kettle, bevor, maille, and brigandine look at late 15th and early 16th Spanish soldiers they wore that combo. Here is a cool kettle and bevor from that time frame in the Philly Museum of Art:



I have more images of brigandines and kettles on these pages: http://www.historiclife.com/Events/Museums/Philly2004.htm http://www.historiclife.com/Events/Museums/Philly2003.htm

As too the difference in the brigandine and the Coat of Plates I would say the real difference is the amount of plates and shaping. CoPs tend to have larger flatter plates and brigandines are shapelier and contour to the body while having smaller plates to help make it more flexible.


Bill

Be careful in defining brigandines as 15th century; they start in the 14th and are used at least through the 16th century.

[Bill Grandy]

[James R.Fox]

Johan-I can only find the Paston letters off-hand. Sir John Paston was stabbed in the back 3-4 times, but was saved by his brigandine.He was wearing one of the fancy ones covered in velvet and enbroidered to look like a fancy winter doublet. I can't remember if he had metal plates or what in his, I remember it had 14 layers.

[James Barker]

[James R.Fox]

Mr barker-thank you very much. I was never sure of what the difference was between the two , because at least one reference I have call them both brigandines, That never sounded right, but I didn't know your reference on how to make a doublet of fence.

[Steven H]