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Shahril Dzulkifli
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 Posted: Mon 21 Jan, 2008 7:25 am Post subject: French Infantry Hanger, 1760-70 |
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The sword shown below is a French Infantry Hanger from 1760-70. During the Napoleonic Wars, this sword was perhaps used by Napoleon's infantry officers and several nations in Europe created swords akin to this one. They have similar brass hilts but their blades differ, though. Any opinions about this type of sword, everyone? I would like to know.
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Mon 21 Jan, 2008 7:47 am Post subject: |
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This sword would have been carried by other ranks, and would have been carried in the late 18th century. IIRC, the An XI infantry briquet would have replaced this pattern and would have been the type carried by Napoleon's infantrymen.
Jonathan
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Shahril Dzulkifli
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| Posted: Wed 23 Jan, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject: French Infantry Hanger, 1760-70 |
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Really, Jonathan? Let's hope that you are right. I could 'agree' with you more about this French sword.
The sword shown below is an antique Infantry Hanger also of French origin dating from 1790, similar to the one shown earlier except for the blade. Its 23” curved blade with short false edge, wedge section shows smooth gray patina and few shallow edge nicks from use.
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D Critchley
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| Posted: Thu 24 Jan, 2008 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: French Infantry Hanger, 1760-70 |
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| Shahril Dzulkifli wrote: | | Really, Jonathan? Let's hope that you are right. . |
It's an other ranks hanger, munition quality, certainly not good enough for an officer
David C
"The purpose of the cavalry on the battlefield is to give tone to an event that otherwise might be considered a common brawl"
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Shahril Dzulkifli
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| Posted: Thu 24 Jan, 2008 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: French Infantry Hanger, 1760-70 |
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Which sword do you mean, David? The first or the second one?
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Thu 24 Jan, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: French Infantry Hanger, 1760-70 |
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| Shahril Dzulkifli wrote: | | Which sword do you mean, David? The first or the second one? |
Both are for other ranks--privates--not officers. Officers' swords were privately purchased as opposed to government issued, and were of a higher quality aesthetically and practically.
Jonathan
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D Critchley
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| Posted: Fri 25 Jan, 2008 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: French Infantry Hanger, 1760-70 |
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| Jonathan Hopkins wrote: | | Shahril Dzulkifli wrote: | | Which sword do you mean, David? The first or the second one? |
Both are for other ranks--privates--not officers. Officers' swords were privately purchased as opposed to government issued, and were of a higher quality aesthetically and practically.
Jonathan |
Yes, An officer's sword would be much better quality, something like this:
Attachment: 30.83 KB
David C
"The purpose of the cavalry on the battlefield is to give tone to an event that otherwise might be considered a common brawl"
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Xavier B
Location: France Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Sat 26 Jan, 2008 5:09 am Post subject: |
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Hello,
I am french and this his is the first post for me on this forum and excellent website. Sorry for my bad english  .
I own a sword like this one. This a Sabre d'Infanterie modèle 1767. This was the sword carried by the french infantery soldiers officialy between 1767 (Louis XV) and 1791 (End of the French Revolution) notably during the American Independance War. It is not a officier's sword, but a military of the rank' sword. I also have the original scabbard. It's made of blackened leather with brass "pontet" and "bouterolle". There is also a white buffalo leather's clamp.
The Sabre d'Infanterie modèle 1767 was produced in most cases in the Klingenthal French Royal Manufacture. It was know to be good sword and have been copied several times by the other european armies. There is a special model with the inscription "Grenadier", specially made for the French Grenadier. It's a very sought-after sword in Europe, and its cost can reach more than 3000 euros.
Officialy, the production of the Sabre d'Infanterie modèle 1767 end up in 1791. But, it was carried by soldiers long times after, also during the 1er Empire, and you can also find a lot of civilian productions of this sword, often dating from the revolution. It is the ancestor of the shorter Sabre Briquet.
I give you the caracteristics of my Sabre d'Infanterie modèle 1767.
Overall length: 81cm
blade length: 68cm
Blade width at base: 4cm
Blade thickness at the base: 0.5cm
CoG: 12cm
CoP: 43cm
Weight: 600g
The blade is made of carbon steel with a sharpened false edge, the guard is made of bronze (not brass) and there is velours between the blade and the guard. It's a good cutting sword, light and agile, but with a strong presence due to the hight CoG. Perhaps it's about 250 years old, my sword is in a good condition and still could used for battle. I've made very concluate cutting test with this. It's also a good thruster.
Sorry, but I don't have pictures of it.
Voilà
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D Critchley
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| Posted: Sat 26 Jan, 2008 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Xavier B wrote: | Hello,
I am french and this his is the first post for me on this forum and excellent website. Sorry for my bad english .
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But much beter than my French, Xavier.
I an interested in the way the infantry of the 1st Empire kept their sabres, the British infantry private gave up his sabre in the mid 1760s.
Was this simply tradition or is there documentary evidence to suggest it was it thought still a useful tool in an army that fought in column and square?
David
David C
"The purpose of the cavalry on the battlefield is to give tone to an event that otherwise might be considered a common brawl"
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Xavier B
Location: France Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Sat 26 Jan, 2008 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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Hello,
The Sabre Briquet is used by the infantery officer, corporals and elite infantry in the French Army during the 1er Empire. Even if some soldiers belonging to Infanterie de Ligne (Line infantry?) carried sabre briquet.
In the elite infantry group, there were Voltigeurs, Grenadiers and Chasseurs à pied. The sabre briquet was a famous and popular sword, sometimes hightly decorated. It was in the same time, a weapon and a tool. The elite infantry soldiers were given a good training to use it, and the french grenadiers were famous on all the european battlefields for their sword fighting with the sabre briquet.
In conclusion, the briquet is at the same time a tool, and a mythic weapon for the french soldiers, used for close-combat. We can say that is precious weapon for the french elite infantry, but also that it's a remain of tradition. The best exemple are the grenadiers fighting in close-combat with a sword during a rifle era.
Actually, the briquet is still famous for...sabrer le champagne!
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Shahril Dzulkifli
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| Posted: Mon 28 Jan, 2008 9:22 am Post subject: Re: French Infantry Hanger, 1760-70 |
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Xavier, since you're French, can you tell me more about the swords shown above?
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Peter G.
Location: Bad Kreuznach/Germany Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Sat 02 Feb, 2008 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Xavier B wrote: | Hello,
In the elite infantry group, there were Voltigeurs, Grenadiers and Chasseurs à pied. The sabre briquet was a famous and popular sword, sometimes hightly decorated. |
There were weapons given for bravery prior the creation of the legion d´honneur. Besides briquets also muskets were given to rank and file.
For officers either sabers or pistols were given, if i find the time i´ll post a pic of a pair made by Boutet-given by Napoleon himself.
| Xavier B wrote: |
It was in the same time, a weapon and a tool. The elite infantry soldiers were given a good training to use it, and the french grenadiers were famous on all the european battlefields for their sword fighting with the sabre briquet. |
Have you any reference for this?? I strongly doubt that briquets were used for combat on a regular base.
When Frederik the Great punished a regiment for breaking in a battle he took away the hanger-something that would make absolutly no sense if they were of any fighting use.
If you want a regiment to fight better it may help to hurt its pride by taking away a badge of honour but surely not by taking away a valuable weapon.
| Xavier B wrote: | In conclusion, the briquet is at the same time a tool, and a mythic weapon for the french soldiers, used for close-combat. We can say that is precious weapon for the french elite infantry, but also that it's a remain of tradition. The best exemple are the grenadiers fighting in close-combat with a sword during a rifle era.
Actually, the briquet is still famous for...sabrer le champagne! |
Yes--it is a mythical weapon-and grenadiers fighting rifles with it is a myth.
Several nations claimed the bayonet their national weapon-the french, the russians, the prussians, the austrians-but if you take a closer look bayonet fights were uncommun-i´ll look for the correct figures tomorrow(at work at moment) but when a french surgeon checked battle wounds he found 10.000+ bullet wounds compared to less then 10 bayonett wounds.
I don´t think there are more wounds caused by briquets but i´m eager to learn more.
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Xavier B
Location: France Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Sat 02 Feb, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Peter G
| Quote: | Peter G."
There were weapons given for bravery prior the creation of the legion d´honneur. Besides briquets also muskets were given to rank and file.
For officers either sabers or pistols were given, if i find the time i´ll post a pic of a pair made by Boutet-given by Napoleon himself. |
I'm not speaking about gift for bravery but about special briquet with the inscription "Grenadier" on the blade. Those weapons were effective sword given to every grenadier.
| Quote: | | Have you any reference for this?? I strongly doubt that briquets were used for combat on a regular base. |
The récits of the battles of Aspern, Valutina, Krasnoie, etc...
| Code: | When Frederik the Great punished a regiment for breaking in a battle he took away the hanger-something that would make absolutly no sense if they were of any fighting use.
If you want a regiment to fight better it may help to hurt its pride by taking away a badge of honour but surely not by taking away a valuable weapon. |
Frederik the Great was not a french general, and every armies fight in a different way. We can not compare the way of fighting. French were know to keep strange traditions and way of fighting. In the XVIth century, when numerous armies were fighting in a modern way with pikes, canons and arquebuses, french were fighting with full armoured mounted Gendarmes in chivalric way.
| Quote: | | Yes--it is a mythical weapon-and grenadiers fighting rifles with it is a myth. |
This a national myth so! Every french will say you the same thing about the grenadiers!
| Quote: | | Several nations claimed the bayonet their national weapon-the french, the russians, the prussians, the austrians-but if you take a closer look bayonet fights were uncommun-i´ll look for the correct figures tomorrow(at work at moment) |
There is a lot of exemples of using of baïonette in battle, often against cavalry in carré d'infanterie. This was not the principal weapon on the battlefield, but not a decorative weapon too. In fact, it depends of the battle (and battlefields).
| Quote: | | but when a french surgeon checked battle wounds he found 10.000+ bullet wounds compared to less then 10 bayonett wounds. |
This french surgeon is named Dominique Jean Larrey. He had wrote very interessing essays.
| Code: | | I don´t think there are more wounds caused by briquets but i´m eager to learn more. |
As the baïonnette, the briquet is not major weapon but a secondary weapon, for close-combat and self defense. If its use is not general, you can find exemple of using in particular situations. A sword cost money, and the training of fencing with it cost money too, and time. So why keep this it the briquet was not used as a weapon, even occasionaly?
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Peter G.
Location: Bad Kreuznach/Germany Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Sat 02 Feb, 2008 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Xavier B wrote: | Hello Peter G
| Quote: | Peter G."
There were weapons given for bravery prior the creation of the legion d´honneur. Besides briquets also muskets were given to rank and file.
For officers either sabers or pistols were given, if i find the time i´ll post a pic of a pair made by Boutet-given by Napoleon himself. |
I'm not speaking about gift for bravery but about special briquet with the inscription "Grenadier" on the blade. Those weapons were effective sword given to every grenadier. |
Inscribing "grenadier" on a hanger doesn´t make it a good weapon just like inscribing "Superman" on a t-shirt doesn´t make my fly.
Apart from the marking the hangers weren´t different from standart.
| Xavier B wrote: | | Quote: | | Have you any reference for this?? I strongly doubt that briquets were used for combat on a regular base. |
The récits of the battles of Aspern, Valutina, Krasnoie, etc... |
Could you pls post e quote were the use of the hangers as real fighting weapon is described? Just because they were carried in battle doesn´mean anybody was really fighting with it.
| Xavier B wrote: | | Code: | When Frederik the Great punished a regiment for breaking in a battle he took away the hanger-something that would make absolutly no sense if they were of any fighting use.
If you want a regiment to fight better it may help to hurt its pride by taking away a badge of honour but surely not by taking away a valuable weapon. |
Frederik the Great was not a french general, and every armies fight in a different way. We can not compare the way of fighting. French were know to keep strange traditions and way of fighting. In the XVIth century, when numerous armies were fighting in a modern way with pikes, canons and arquebuses, french were fighting with full armoured mounted Gendarmes in chivalric way. |
A sword is a sword is a sword. And tactics in the coalition wars were very similar-so if 60years before Frederik the Great considered hangers as badge of honour only i really don´t think that the french invented a far better hanger
| Xavier B wrote: | | Quote: | | Yes--it is a mythical weapon-and grenadiers fighting rifles with it is a myth. |
This a national myth so! Every french will say you the same thing about the grenadiers! |
Its a national myth there is a monster in Loch Ness, its a national myth that Friedrich Barbarossa sleps below the Kyffhaeuser and will come back to save the christian faith in need, its a national myth that Sir Francis Drake will come back to save England when you beat his drum-several myth as true as the above-maybe little bit harder to prove.
| Xavier B wrote: | | Quote: | | Several nations claimed the bayonet their national weapon-the french, the russians, the prussians, the austrians-but if you take a closer look bayonet fights were uncommun-i´ll look for the correct figures tomorrow(at work at moment) |
There is a lot of exemples of using of baïonette in battle, often against cavalry in carré d'infanterie. This was not the principal weapon on the battlefield, but not a decorative weapon too. In fact, it depends of the battle (and battlefields). |
Repelling cavallry in a square is not hand-to-hand fighting with bayonet/briquet-thats not what we are talking about.
| Xavier B wrote: | | Quote: | | but when a french surgeon checked battle wounds he found 10.000+ bullet wounds compared to less then 10 bayonett wounds. |
This french surgeon is named Dominique Jean Larrey. He had wrote very interessing essays. |
Yep-i´ll post the figures later when back home
| Code: | | I don´t think there are more wounds caused by briquets but i´m eager to learn more. |
| Xavier B wrote: | | As the baïonnette, the briquet is not major weapon but a secondary weapon, for close-combat and self defense. If its use is not general, you can find exemple of using in particular situations. A sword cost money, and the training of fencing with it cost money too, and time. So why keep this it the briquet was not used as a weapon, even occasionaly? |
I don´t say that there was never a soldier who used the briquet as a last resort for defence after losing his musket-i say that it was not a general parctice and i said i doubt that french grenadiers were famous because they did fight a lot with it.
The briquet was kept as a badge of honour-like the bearskin cap, like the leather apron for the pioneers-not because of its great fighting abilities.
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Sat 09 Feb, 2008 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| Xavier B wrote: | | In the XVIth century, when numerous armies were fighting in a modern way with pikes, canons and arquebuses, french were fighting with full armoured mounted Gendarmes in chivalric way. |
Most definitely not true. The French did use fully-armored gendarmes, but these horsemen functioned (or at least were supposed to function) as part of a combined-arms system that also incorporated infantry (especially Swiss pike blocks) and artillery. There was nothing particularly archaic about French tactics in the Italian Wars, and this untrue statement actually undermines the thesis you're trying to make. Try finding a better example, such as an actual occurrence of French grenadiers fighting or at least charging the enemy with swords drawn. I haven't heard of a single concrete example so far.
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Xavier B
Location: France Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Mon 11 Feb, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Lafayette C Curtis,
As first, please keep cool, I find some interventions very aggressive. I'm not your ennemy. Please make of a little more courtesy  .
| Quote: | | Most definitely not true. The French did use fully-armored gendarmes, but these horsemen functioned (or at least were supposed to function) as part of a combined-arms system that also incorporated infantry (especially Swiss pike blocks) and artillery. There was nothing particularly archaic about French tactics in the Italian Wars |
This was juste a "general" example. Not an affirmation. And I've never said that the French were using archaic fighting, please don't read what I've never wrote. At least, French armies were very efficient during the Italian Wars. But they were using Gendarmes. And Gendarmes were the last resort of chivalry during the renaissance, were armies used to use more modern units.
With this, they were also using "modern" infantry, principaly mercenaries as Italian, Scots and German Landsknechts (the fost famous was the Black Legion, destroyed at Pavia). For the swiss Reislaufers, you have to wait the end of the battle of Marignan to see them really incorporated in the François 1er' army.
I don't really see why you have made an special answer for this.
| Quote: | | and this untrue statement actually undermines the thesis you're trying to make. Try finding a better example, such as an actual occurrence of French grenadiers fighting or at least charging the enemy with swords drawn. I haven't heard of a single concrete example so far. |
What a politeness! It's a pleasure to see an so friendly discution...(...)
I won't answer anymore to this topic, as leat I did not answer to the precedent, because I think we are not talking about the same thing. Your answers are not really about what I've wrote. It's surely my fault, because I don't use to speak and write English. I'm sorry about this, but the things I write seems not to be what I would say. My apologies. I would really try to explain me an other time, but your relating lack of sympathy do not inspire me in trying more.
Have a good day.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Mon 11 Feb, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Xavier B wrote: | Hello Lafayette C Curtis,
As first, please keep cool, I find some interventions very aggressive. I'm not your ennemy. Please make of a little more courtesy .
[snip]
What a politeness! It's a pleasure to see an so friendly discution...(...)
I won't answer anymore to this topic, as leat I did not answer to the precedent, because I think we are not talking about the same thing. Your answers are not really about what I've wrote. It's surely my fault, because I don't use to speak and write English. I'm sorry about this, but the things I write seems not to be what I would say. My apologies. I would really try to explain me an other time, but your relating lack of sympathy do not inspire me in trying more.
Have a good day. |
Xavier,
Do not tell other people how to post; that is the job of our Moderators. If you feel someone's behavior goes against our rules, please use the Report Post function to let a Moderator know.
Your last paragraph seems sarcastic, something we discourage.
For the record, as a Moderator, I have no problem with Lafayette's response to you.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Xavier B
Location: France Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Tue 12 Feb, 2008 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| Xavier B wrote: | Hello Lafayette C Curtis,
Xavier,
Do not tell other people how to post; that is the job of our Moderators. If you feel someone's behavior goes against our rules, please use the Report Post function to let a Moderator know.
Your last paragraph seems sarcastic, something we discourage.
For the record, as a Moderator, I have no problem with Lafayette's response to you. |
Hello,
Sorry if this paragrah seems sarcastic, it wasn't my attention. I just wanted to do a polished remark but I'm using a simple traductor. I thinks the problems are coming from here. I have no problem with "Lafayette's", but I found some answers of the lasts topics very discouraging. At the begining, I have just posted for giving some help no more, with no pretention. And then, I was addressee of rather cold comments. I find this a bit hard for beginner. The most troublesome is that I'm almost entirely agreed with Lafayette C Curtis and Peter G, but my bad English make them think the opposite.
But what is sure, is that I have never wanted to make of sarcasm. As wrote upper, I have some difficulties for English speaking and I using a bad traductor. I even try to be the most polished possible and to be friendly when it's possible (no one say hello!). I thinks the best issue is stopping posting on this forum, we shall avoid a lot of problems .
Keep doing a good job, this website is a pearl and a mine of information . Thanks a lot and sorry for the problems.
Good Bye
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 12 Feb, 2008 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| Xavier B wrote: | I even try to be the most polished possible and to be friendly when it's possible (no one say hello!). I thinks the best issue is stopping posting on this forum, we shall avoid a lot of problems .
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Xavier,
It is, of course, your choice whether you wish to continue posting. No one is asking you to stop posting that though. You should remember that people will question every post and will challenge things they disagree with. This is not showing disrespect, it's simply the nature of discussion.
I'd be happy to have you continue posting, but you should expect people to disagree with you from time to time.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Peter G.
Location: Bad Kreuznach/Germany Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Tue 12 Feb, 2008 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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@Xavier
Sorry--but thats lame..
If you post statements you should not be angry when somebody asks them-thats what a discussion is for.
If you think you are right, you are very welcome to defend your case like anybody else-best would be by some contemporary quotes that underlines your statement.
Most of us are here because we like swords, we are interested in history-and we are interested in facts.
Not the "everybody-knows-it"sort of facts but facts were you can point a source. (sorry my clumsy english-its not my first language at well).
Feel free to post, feel free to share your knowledge-and stand to your case when asked.
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