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Paul Seaman
Location: Charlottesville (Afton), Virginia Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 5
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 Posted: Tue 08 Jan, 2008 2:07 pm Post subject: Braveheart Claymore - real? |
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Can someone tell me if the style of the Claymore used by Mel Gibson in "Braveheart" is an authentic design. I have an inexpensive replica of it (there are of course many available on the Internet), but I can't find any examples of this style in books or on-line articles -- including this site -- as a real/historic sword style. It's not in Oakshott's typologies (i.e., "Record of the Medieval Sword," which is the one I have). I thought it was an authentic design, with its distinctive leather covering down over the ricasso. But I would like to see a picture of a real one--even a drawing?--not just those photos of the replica being sold by modern sword sellers. Thanks. -- Paul
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Jesse Zinn
Location: NC (USA) Joined: 17 Nov 2003
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Tue 08 Jan, 2008 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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Paul,
Greetings. Welcome aboard! It is my understanding that the sword was an original design by Fulvio Del Tin,
http://filmswords.com/alsostarring/alsostarring.htm
Cheers,
-Jess
P.S. One thing I'd appreciate getting others' opinions on is the discrepancy I feel exists between the prop sword depicted in the film, and the Del Tin replica, regarding the length of the leather ricasso covering. The one in the film appeared to be quite long, perhaps at least as long as the handle grip (there seemed to be nice balance and symmetery of leather both above and below the crossguard). The replica, however, appears to exhibit a much shorter leather ricasso cover. I'm curious as to the opinions of those that have owned or handled the DT replica. Thanks much!
Jesse D. Zinn
North Carolina
“Hwæt wé Gár-Dena in geár-dagum
þéod-cyninga þrym gefrúnon,
hú ðá æþelingas ellen fremedon."
Last edited by Jesse Zinn on Tue 08 Jan, 2008 2:17 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Mike Arledge
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Lin Robinson
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| Posted: Tue 08 Jan, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Braveheart Claymore - real? |
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| Paul Seaman wrote: | | Can someone tell me if the style of the Claymore used by Mel Gibson in "Braveheart" is an authentic design. I have an inexpensive replica of it (there are of course many available on the Internet), but I can't find any examples of this style in books or on-line articles -- including this site -- as a real/historic sword style. It's not in Oakshott's typologies (i.e., "Record of the Medieval Sword," which is the one I have). I thought it was an authentic design, with its distinctive leather covering down over the ricasso. But I would like to see a picture of a real one--even a drawing?--not just those photos of the replica being sold by modern sword sellers. Thanks. -- Paul |
I've handled and examined a number of the replicas of this sword available from various sources. I have searched, without success, for an example of an original that I thought was close to this one in style and construction and time period. IMHO, the sword used in the movie is not of authentic design. In the first place, if what I have read about the swords of this era is correct, they did not use two-handed swords of this type in combat in the 13th c. There were very large swords in existence then, but they were "bearing", "parade" or "state" swords, per Oakeshott.
Like so much of "Braveheart", it appears that this sword is a product of the imagination of a modern man. Mr. Del Tin is a likely candidate.
If someone out there can produce photos of an original in this style, or contemporary drawings or paintings of the same, I would love to see it.
Lin Robinson
"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Tim Boyer
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| Posted: Tue 08 Jan, 2008 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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I remember reading this at some point and was able to dig it up quickly for ya,
http://swordforum.com/fall99/sword-of-william-wallace.html
Though as stated in the article there is not solid proof the sword was ever owned or used by William Wallace, it is the sword that has been given that privilege due to it's history, ect. seems like it might as well be 
Anyway, as you see its really not a very fantastic looking blade in spite of the history surrounding it, probably why a more charismatic blade was thought up for the film.
Bad is never good, until worse happens.
Danish Proverb
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Lin Robinson
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| Posted: Tue 08 Jan, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Tim Boyer wrote: | I remember reading this at some point and was able to dig it up quickly for ya,
http://swordforum.com/fall99/sword-of-william-wallace.html
Though as stated in the article there is not solid proof the sword was ever owned or used by William Wallace, it is the sword that has been given that privilege due to it's history, ect. seems like it might as well be
Anyway, as you see its really not a very fantastic looking blade in spite of the history surrounding it, probably why a more charismatic blade was thought up for the film. |
That's not the blade being discussed Tim. We are talking about the movie sword which does not share any of the characteristics of the Wallace Monument Sword. IMHO the Monument sword was not the sword of William Wallace. There is too much about it that smacks of a later time period.
Lin Robinson
"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Christopher Gregg
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| Posted: Tue 08 Jan, 2008 3:22 pm Post subject: Del Tin Wallace Claymore |
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In response to Jesse's question about the length of the Del Tin Wallace Claymore replica: having just come from Del Tin's web site, it does appear that the ricasso covering is shorter than the grip. However, I seem to remember watching the battle scenes in "Braveheart" and noticing that in at least one shot of Mel Gibson holding the sword after heavy use, the leather covering seemed to slip down the blade a bit, perhaps a few inches, making it appear to be longer. It was definitely lower on the blade, at least! I have not handled the Del Tin replica, but I could guess that the leather ricasso covering might slip off the blade, if it was subjected to sufficient lubricant (i.e. blood), and had enough force applied.
In any case, I'm sure the Del Tin replica is the best version of this sword available on the market, not counting any custom pieces.
Christopher Gregg
'S Rioghal Mo Dhream!
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Jared Smith
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| Posted: Tue 08 Jan, 2008 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Braveheart Claymore - real? |
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| Lin Robinson wrote: | | In the first place, if what I have read about the swords of this era is correct, they did not use two-handed swords of this type in combat in the 13th c. There were very large swords in existence then, but they were "bearing", "parade" or "state" swords, per Oakeshott. |
I agree the sword really does seem out of place for 13th century, as does the museum specimen that has an odd combination of earlier blade flat diamond cross section made to overall proportions of a true 15th century great two hander sword. The grip is actually way too short for that later era also. The movie was pretty faithful to an enshrined artifact which is now a permanent part of the legend or folklore of a large warrior with a sword so big only an uncommonly big man could use it!
The repaired museum blade is ~52" long and the sword weighs ~6 lbs. It is an excellent match in overall dimension and weight distribution for the heavy (most being between 5 to 6 lbs, many 5.X lbs) 15th to 16th great two handed swords really intended for combat, but the blade and grip are not really right for that period.
http://swordforum.com/fall99/sword-of-william-wallace.html
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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Justin King
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 08 Jan, 2008 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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The type of sword used in the movie is considered by many to be a later (15th or 16th century) type that is of continetal origin, I don't think the basic design was invented by Mr. Del Tin.
I have yet to see an original sword of this type or even a clear period depiction of one that I recall, however, the description given on Albion's Tyrolean page gives about as much info on this type as I have seen anywhere, which isn't much. Perhaps Peter Johnsson can comment since I believe he did the conceptual drawings for the NextGen line and has probably researched this type if it does exist.
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 3:08 am Post subject: |
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I read somewhere here that there are more swords similar to that repaired museum blade claimed to be Wallace's from 13th or early 14th century and that it could really be Wallace's blade, just rehilted of course... I think mr. Arnow posted it in a topic similar to this one... I'm sorry if I remembered it wrong... I will search for it.
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Paul Seaman
Location: Charlottesville (Afton), Virginia Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 6:34 am Post subject: |
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Wow . . . Thanks to all of you for your helpful replies on the "Braveheart" sword. I am delighted by the number of responses, even more than the info itself. I am so happy to discover this website. My interest in swords (I still resist calling it a "collection" because that sounds so shallow compared to the depth of feeling and historic/mythic interest that draws me to swords), and I have 35 now, has been a very solitary pursuit. My girlfriend is repulsed. My male friends think it is cool, but admire the idea from an ignorant distance; and I don't practice any martial art or Renaissance reenacting, so I don't have people who can share a knowledgeable or heartfelt appreciation of swords. And I definitely don't see myself in the same category as those who collect knives and guns....
So thanks for the community, and to the people who created and manage this site. I never knew there were so many "ordinary" sword enthusiasts out there!
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Paul Seaman
Location: Charlottesville (Afton), Virginia Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 7:27 am Post subject: |
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While we're on the subject . . . "Braveheart" was in many ways a compelling and certainly well-made film; but among its many sillinesses and historical inaccuracies was the scene early in the film when he takes vengeance for the murder of his wife. There is no way someone could draw the oversized Claymore up from behind his back and slice someone's head off in one stroke, in the manner of drawing a Japanese katana from the waist. The (normal) human arm just isn't long enough, let alone the small likelihood that one could HIDE such a large sword strapped to the back.
"I create a world of vibrant wholeness by sharing my passion, being reflective and staying engaged."
(personal mission/credo)
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Tim Boyer
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| Posted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 7:45 am Post subject: |
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Ah, sorry i guess my mind wondered more towards the William Wallace connection, rather than the sword style used in the film as a style seen in history 
Bad is never good, until worse happens.
Danish Proverb
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Mike Arledge
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| Posted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| Paul Seaman wrote: | | While we're on the subject . . . "Braveheart" was in many ways a compelling and certainly well-made film; but among its many sillinesses and historical inaccuracies was the scene early in the film when he takes vengeance for the murder of his wife. There is no way someone could draw the oversized Claymore up from behind his back and slice someone's head off in one stroke, in the manner of drawing a Japanese katana from the waist. The (normal) human arm just isn't long enough, let alone the small likelihood that one could HIDE such a large sword strapped to the back. |
If my memory is correct, that was a type of flail he had behind his back, which is something you could hide there.
Mike J Arledge
The Dude Abides
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Jesse Zinn
Location: NC (USA) Joined: 17 Nov 2003
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| Lin Robinson wrote: |
That's not the blade being discussed Tim. |
And yet you go on to dedicate three more sentences to the sword Tim mentioned... 
*Warning: Divergent Discussion*
While I understand that myArmoury and certain other forum sites have chosen to generally enact "heavy moderation" in regards to keeping threads specific and relevant, I find this rather unfortunate. Oftentimes I feel that forum discussions (as in 'real life') benefit greatly from divergent and even irrelevant tangents of discussion. Oftentimes it seems that the original author of a thread is greatly appreciative of the myriad points and topics that arose from lively and free-form discussion. But, I certainly acknowledge that this isn't my site, so I humbly digress. Rant concluded. Thank you. (Apologies, Nathan)
-Jess
P.S. Lin, I'm heading down to Belmont/Mount Holly next week for work. Know of anywhere good to eat around there? I'm all about Bridges BBQ, but it'd probably be a bit far... 
Jesse D. Zinn
North Carolina
“Hwæt wé Gár-Dena in geár-dagum
þéod-cyninga þrym gefrúnon,
hú ðá æþelingas ellen fremedon."
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Jesse Zinn
Location: NC (USA) Joined: 17 Nov 2003
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Del Tin Wallace Claymore |
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| Christopher Gregg wrote: | | In response to Jesse's question about the length of the Del Tin Wallace Claymore replica: having just come from Del Tin's web site, it does appear that the ricasso covering is shorter than the grip. However, I seem to remember watching the battle scenes in "Braveheart" and noticing that in at least one shot of Mel Gibson holding the sword after heavy use, the leather covering seemed to slip down the blade a bit, perhaps a few inches, making it appear to be longer. It was definitely lower on the blade, at least! I have not handled the Del Tin replica, but I could guess that the leather ricasso covering might slip off the blade, if it was subjected to sufficient lubricant (i.e. blood), and had enough force applied. |
I don't know...
 Attachment: 33.12 KB
Jesse D. Zinn
North Carolina
“Hwæt wé Gár-Dena in geár-dagum
þéod-cyninga þrym gefrúnon,
hú ðá æþelingas ellen fremedon."
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Christopher Gregg
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| Posted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: Del Tin Claymore |
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From the look of your picture, the ricasso cover is the same length as the grip cover. However, the ricasso cover on the production Del Tin sword seems shorter (sorry, don't know how to imbed a link). It goes without saying that the movie sword(s) may not have the exact specifications as Del Tin's production model.
Christopher Gregg
'S Rioghal Mo Dhream!
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| Jesse Zinn wrote: | | Lin Robinson wrote: |
That's not the blade being discussed Tim. |
And yet you go on to dedicate three more sentences to the sword Tim mentioned...
*Warning: Divergent Discussion*
While I understand that myArmoury and certain other forum sites have chosen to generally enact "heavy moderation" in regards to keeping threads specific and relevant, I find this rather unfortunate. Oftentimes I feel that forum discussions (as in 'real life') benefit greatly from divergent and even irrelevant tangents of discussion. Oftentimes it seems that the original author of a thread is greatly appreciative of the myriad points and topics that arose from lively and free-form discussion. But, I certainly acknowledge that this isn't my site, so I humbly digress. Rant concluded. Thank you. (Apologies, Nathan)
-Jess
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There has been no moderation here, so I'm unsure why you're bringing this up.  Lin Robinson (not Nathan) simply pointed out that the original poster was talking about the movie sword, not about the historical sword attributed to William Wallace. That has nothing to do with our moderation policies; it's one reader making sure other readers know what the actual point of the thread is.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Jesse Zinn
Location: NC (USA) Joined: 17 Nov 2003
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: |
There has been no moderation here, so I'm unsure why you're bringing this up. Lin Robinson (not Nathan) simply pointed out that the original poster was talking about the movie sword, not about the historical sword attributed to William Wallace. That has nothing to do with our moderation policies; it's one reader making sure other readers know what the actual point of the thread is. |
I suppose I read Lin's intentions incorrectly. My apologies to all, especially Lin.
I apologized to Nathan prior because I had chosen to comment on the managment of his site, which isn't truly a kind thing to do. I do hope that Nathan knows how appreciative I am of myArmoury and his efforts in maintaining it. It's a privilege to be able to participate here.
Jesse D. Zinn
North Carolina
“Hwæt wé Gár-Dena in geár-dagum
þéod-cyninga þrym gefrúnon,
hú ðá æþelingas ellen fremedon."
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Lee O'Hagan
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| Posted: Wed 09 Jan, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: |
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The Del Tin one doesnt match the movie one because Simon at Raven Armoury made the pictured sword for the film,if memory serve's,
there are a good few Del Tin swords in the movie though,
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