Posts: 11,553 Location: San Francisco
Mon 07 Jan, 2008 12:35 pm
| William M wrote: |
| Also for the price they ask there are plenty of other options about where you can get an excellent handmade sword. Now when I say handmade I do not mean using your hands to put a steel blank in the machine, but actually forging and so on. |
I'd like to see a list of said makers who will make handmade, forged blades of similar quality to Albion's offerings with historically-plausible designs and handling characteristics. I'm not confident that that list would be extensive and am frankly unaware of many makers who make "excellent handmade swords" at the $500-$800 range with the same quality and research behind them as Albion.
As with any item, the work that goes into a good quality sword extends much farther than simply the manufacturing method. Hands-on research of historical offerings, documentation of originals, the design process, heat-treatment, and the understanding of historical properties such as the dynamics of a sword, the shape and proportion of the various elements, and material selection are just a few things that add significantly to the work put into such products.
There are many, many makers of swords in the marketplace that will hammer out a blade and put a hilt on it. It's not so easy to find a maker who's extensively studied originals and worked hard to replicate the authentic properties of these originals as well as Albion has endeavored to do. Going beyond that, the guys at Albion have paid attention to the way swords move and react dynamically and have worked with martial artists to get as close as they do to the way these things are supposed to work. Further, their research and knowledge of originals has allowed them the understanding of how the various components of a sword (blade, hilt, materials, etc) all fit together to form a final product that is historically plausible.
Not many makers at the sub-$1000 mark can do all these things.
Having said that, I can no longer justify the expense of their offerings for my own collecting. I did not, however, come to this conclusion because I feel that they're overpriced. The things above cost money. Simple as that.
Posts: 267 Location: Buckinghamshire , England
Mon 07 Jan, 2008 1:07 pm
Sorry but I don't have a list, nor did I claim to have one. My comment is based on experience and years looking through smiths websites. No need to be so confrontational as my opinon is that for a production sword, Albions offerings are rather expensive.
Posts: 11,553 Location: San Francisco
Mon 07 Jan, 2008 1:17 pm
| William M wrote: |
| Sorry but I don't have a list, nor did I claim to have one. My comment is based on experience and years looking through smiths websites. No need to be so confrontational as my opinon is that for a production sword, Albions offerings are rather expensive. |
I'm not being confrontational. My response was quite matter-of-fact and asked for you to supply further information to support your position. I attempted to supply information to support my stance on the issue and feel it's reasonable to ask for you to do the same.
One message I've always wanted to get out via this site is that terms like expensive and value are completely subjective. Like you, I believe Albion's offerings are expensive. But I believe they are of value given the amount of work put into them and that is what I tried to convey in my previous post. Many new to this hobby do not consider some of the things that I mentioned above and so I feel it's a worthwhile addition to such discussions.
I still would like to know of the many other options that you mentioned in your previous topic.
Posts: 1,563 Location: Upstate NY
Mon 07 Jan, 2008 1:23 pm
| Quote: |
| Also for the price they ask there are plenty of other options about where you can get an excellent handmade sword |
William, I didn't take Nathans response as confrontational, in fact it sounds to me like he's basing his statements on the same thing you've said you have. That said a listing of the folks you feel could do this would certainly be helpfull in a general sense, there are always people posting here looking for directions to go in since their new to the hobby and would appreciate the guidance.
Posts: 870 Location: Seattle area
Mon 07 Jan, 2008 1:26 pm
Re: Albion, does it live up to the hype?
| Michael Curl wrote: |
So I'm new to this site, and serious sword knowledge in general. I have a small collection, but they are all those wall hanging non-authentic lotr swords and so forth. So I'm now expanding my knowledge on REAL swords and would like to know if Albion is as good as they seem to be.
Also, are there any better manufactures in your opinion? |
Hi Michael
A couple loaded questions here..... and nothing but subjective answers for them........ But as a onetime competitor of Albion's I have some insights as to what sets Albion apart..........
People........
Eric McHugh, Mike Sigman, Peter Johnsson........
A production company that also retails will not be at all successful without great customer service. There are other folks that do a good job, maybe even a great job, but Mike Sigman is in a class all by himself. In my opinion, Albion currently has the best customer support in the game.....
Peter Johnsson.........
Peter isn't just some swordsmith..... his background is in art, and what an artist he must be. All modern swords are interpretation of what was, and PJ is unique, in that he can capture the "feel" of what was, and improve on it {though you may not notice than until you really look}. The way that the lines all flow, there's a balance to his designs that is just special. And he's a bit of perfectionist........ but that is why Albion's products are so special.........
Handling and cutting performance, durability........ Albion has this, but this isn't what sets them apart. They do have peers here........
Yes, Albion's products are worth the price.........
Posts: 870 Location: Seattle area
Mon 07 Jan, 2008 1:30 pm
| Bob Burns wrote: |
To clarify, the "nicks' that I have encountered have been so tiny I had to find them by "feel" and they have been few and far between. Nor have they been exclusive to the Berserkr or the Vassal, I've had them on Arms & Armor swords too.
I just got the feeling that perhaps I did not explain myself correctly. Furthermore, any nicks that I have encountered have been "easily" honed off the edge without compromising the edge.
I hope this clarifies what I meant, if not please write a post or contact me.
I am in the process of buying another Albion for a reason, they are amongst the very best swords that can be bought :!:
Most Sincerely!
Bob |
Nice read Bob........ I don't think Albion uses 1075 anymore..........*g*
Posts: 267 Location: Buckinghamshire , England
Mon 07 Jan, 2008 1:37 pm
Hmm, well a search through my favourites reveals little. A lot of the sites and smiths I was thinking of are of custom smiths with prices higher than Albion.
Looks like I was wrong in my comments.:confused:
Posts: 410 Location: Washington and Yokohama
Mon 07 Jan, 2008 2:27 pm
I just want to clairify that I never said that albions swords are "overpriced", but I did say that they were "pricey so choose carefully". I have ruled out collecting albions swords due to the costs equaling more than most of my medical and dental bills, any auto related bills, and more than a whole quarter of tuition. As these things are more pertinent, I keep having to side with them over and over as extra funds get freed up. I do plan on a few film sword purchases, but considering the constant rise in costs, I expect to be unable to justify them even more by the time I save any extra up.
They are worth it, dont get me wrong. I do own three Albion blades currently, and have had three others in the past. They have just set themselves out of the average hosehold income. Thats all; justified or not.
:)
Last edited by Alex Oster on Mon 07 Jan, 2008 2:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posts: 1,532 Location: Tennessee
Mon 07 Jan, 2008 2:27 pm
| Nathan Robinson wrote: |
I still would like to know of the many other options that you mentioned in your previous topic. |
If there are none in his list, I can connect you with a custom knife maker who does produce folding pocket knives and small fixed blades from hand forged pattern welded materials. I have been drooling over a partially completed Italian inspired stilletto/ dagger (Renaissance era, twisted ivory grip, welded-twisted guard) he has had in progress as a masterpiece to keep for himself for over a year. You can get one of his blades (about 3" long) for the bargain price of around 30% to 50% of an average Albion sword model. I consider this an approximate gage of what that kind of labor takes to produce something with a perfectionist's standard for completeness. This individual is not really even trying to make a business out of it. He just wants to cover his costs for the materials (often real fossilized ivory, etc.) and something fair enough to cover his hobby's tools and considerable spent making each item. I told him the background of it, and what I paid for the Albion Munich, and he replied something like; "I would not even dream about attempting something like that for that price..."
Posts: 64 Location: Upstate N.Y.
Mon 07 Jan, 2008 2:59 pm
Albion prices
You know some people like to jump on the price of Albion swords, but like the saying goes you get what you pay for. Another thing , lets not forget that Albion offers the Squire line with swords under $400, so it's not like they don't take care of the lower end people.
Posts: 2,167
Mon 07 Jan, 2008 5:00 pm
Let's not forget that payment plans are available for Albion swords over $500. It's easy to forget that Albion offers these plans, but they do, and it can make a big difference if you need to spread out your costs for a sword.
Posts: 55
Mon 07 Jan, 2008 6:00 pm
I own an Albion Talhoffer which I was lucky enough to pick up second hand and in excellent condition from Theodore Fike over at Swordforum.com, saving myself a good $150 or so all told. I couldn't be happier, and I would have been just as happy to spend the extra cash for one new, even though it's a big purchase for me.
Albion has earned their reputation. Hype is not a word I would use in connection with them, as it implies an overinflated sense of worth. Their swords are worth every penny.
Posts: 462 Location: Northern VA
Mon 07 Jan, 2008 7:44 pm
I have to agree with the general sentiment that's being presented here. The price seems a bit high, but I feel like we get a good value for it. We get what we pay for in this case. I bought an Albion Talhoffer off of a forum member here about a year ago, and after handling it, I didn't need much more convincing to become an Albion fan. Since then, I've bought one of their blunts, and recently received another sharp, and have another one in the pipeline through Christian Fletcher. I couldn't be happier.
The attention to detail, the craftsmanship, the overall look and feel, it's all superb.
I'm a big fan of A&A as well, but I just wanted to echo the thought that you'll probably be quite pleased with Albion if you can afford it. :)
Posts: 487 Location: Northern California, US
Mon 07 Jan, 2008 8:25 pm
| Alex Oster wrote: |
I just want to clairify that I never said that albions swords are "overpriced", but I did say that they were "pricey so choose carefully". I have ruled out collecting albions swords due to the costs equaling more than most of my medical and dental bills, any auto related bills, and more than a whole quarter of tuition. As these things are more pertinent, I keep having to side with them over and over as extra funds get freed up. I do plan on a few film sword purchases, but considering the constant rise in costs, I expect to be unable to justify them even more by the time I save any extra up.
They are worth it, dont get me wrong. I do own three Albion blades currently, and have had three others in the past. They have just set themselves out of the average hosehold income. Thats all; justified or not.
:) |
what college do you go to? Mine's costing me 8,000 a semester.
unless your going to a community college (which keeps making me feel dumper and dumper the more I talke to my friends. :blush: )
For me 800 dollars is just way too much money, and I don't want to buy a squire sword because they only have 4, and if I wanted a decent one I already have my katana, what I want is a perfect one, one that is EXACTLY the sword I want, and has looks, accuracy, and effectiveness. ( I was thinking the Agincourt, but the Crecy and one other looked good 2). hmmm, maybe if I sold some, but I could only get (hmmm, 295 $) that would help I guess. But then again, even 400 is A LOT of money too me. that's like 10 tanks of gas. (hahha, I need a job :P )
But thanks for your responses guys, they sound prettly legit. I peeked at A&A and they just reminded me too much of all the other websites I shopped at, they just didn't seem to offer the variety of just swords, and when I only see like 5 of a type, makes me think they don't know enough about them to make them different.
So onto question #2, I looked at the mercenary tailor on albions site, they looked pretty cool considering the price, what's your guys opinion on them?
p.s. Any of you guys know where I can buy any hauberks?
Posts: 9,545 Location: Dayton, OH
Mon 07 Jan, 2008 9:07 pm
| Michael Curl wrote: |
But thanks for your responses guys, they sound prettly legit. I peeked at A&A and they just reminded me too much of all the other websites I shopped at, they just didn't seem to offer the variety of just swords, and when I only see like 5 of a type, makes me think they don't know enough about them to make them different.
So onto question #2, I looked at the mercenary tailor on albions site, they looked pretty cool considering the price, what's your guys opinion on them?
p.s. Any of you guys know where I can buy any hauberks? |
Michael,
If you want advice on other companies or products, you're best off starting new threads to deal with them. This thread is for opinions on Albion.
As for A&A, I'm surprised that 27 swords (not 5--where did that number come from?) plus 19 rapiers (not to mention daggers, polearms, and armour plus any custom thing you can afford) are not enough variety for you. :)
Albion has more swords for sure. But A&A has at least as many items, they just picked a wider variety of items to offer. Some would fault Albion for a lack of diversity while you seem to fault A&A for too much diversity. :) They're just different approaches. A&A has been around much longer than Albion and their products are widely respected. Whether I choose Albion or A&A (or any other quality supplier) depends on the product I'm looking for and the price point at which I'm looking to buy.
Posts: 487 Location: Northern California, US
Mon 07 Jan, 2008 9:29 pm
What I meant was that when I looked at A&A, their swords (not counting rapiers, I know they are swords, but when I'm shopping for a rapier I'm looking for a rapier, and when I'm looking for a longsword I'm looking for a longsword, just like rifles and pistols to me, totally different) seemed to all be the same, I didn't notice a lot of variation in the fullers, or pommels. It looked like they only had a few types.Once again, I'm comparing IN GENRE, where there are quite a few JUST longswords, and quite a few JUST arming swords at albion, there seemed very few JUST longswords at A&A, and if you take away falchions, messers, & rapiers, that number fell drastically (though of course 5 was an exaggeration). Also I'm not nocking them for their pole arms or their quality as a company, just the quantity of designs they had IN ONE TYPE.
Posts: 1,019 Location: South Indianapolis IN
Tue 08 Jan, 2008 3:24 pm
In relation to Arms & Armor and their knowledge of swords, it is expansive and extensive. Christopher Poor the owner of Arms & Armor was selected by
Ewart Oakeshott himself to head and control the Oakeshott Institute. It was to Christopher Poor that Ewart Oakeshott left his collection. Chris has had extensive access to museum and private collections of original swords all from which he used to base the production swords at Arms & Armor.
Craig Johnson, who is second in command has done some rather impressive articles on tempering and so forth. There is NO lack of knowledge at Arms & Armor, all one has to do is look in their "Custom" page or look through the page that lists the vast high level of customers that they have, including the Shakespearian Globe Theatre in England!
Lack of knowledge and skill at Arms & Armor? Unfounded and totally false from start to finish! End of Story!
Sincerely!
Bob
Posts: 1,019 Location: South Indianapolis IN
Wed 09 Jan, 2008 3:53 pm
In relation to Albion, I tested the Berserkr blade last night on my computer table which is a 3' by 8' folding partical board table with a vinyl wrap on the edges and a pseudo woodgrain paper covering. I did two firm hacks diagonally onto the top edge of the table, each cut was at least a half inch deep so as to test the hardiness of the blade. Upon inspection of the striking area of the Berserkr there was not the slightest tiny nick to be found!
Sincerely,
Bob
Last edited by Bob Burns on Wed 09 Jan, 2008 6:03 pm; edited 2 times in total
Posts: 8,310 Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Wed 09 Jan, 2008 5:41 pm
Was able to handle the Maestro line 1:33 training sword last night as one of the sword & buckler students brought one to class: Can't call this a review but lets just say that it floats as if it didn't weigh anything when held just looking at it, and I mean that in a good way as I imagine it would be very fast. It would have taken a good fast swing and a sudden stop to get a better idea about the handling and blade presence.
The edges are reasonably thick I'm guessing around 2 mm or a little more and very rounded.
The blade feels and looks more like a real sword than I expected based on the pics as opposed to looking like a training sword: One can forget about the very rounded point and easily imagine it being a sharp when handling it.
http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ma...ce-I33.htm
I know that the Topic was more about Albion quality in general and this training sword screams " QUALITY ".
Worth the price as all the Albions are in my opinion if one can afford the price, and this does vary a bit considering the squire line and the Maestro line are affordable ! ( High mid range affordable but high on the quality and design scales ).
Posts: 57 Location: Tulsa, OK
Wed 09 Jan, 2008 10:51 pm
albion
I love Albion swords, what can I say. But alas I am not a wealthy man. But I am the proud owner of several Albions (among
a few from other brands). I bought two of them new, but my current personal strategy for dealing with the price (ie. my relative
lack of means) is this:
1) I carefully pick out two or three Albion swords that I would really like to own in the next 6-8 months or so.
2) I start saving my money.
3) Sometime in the next several months one of those swords will invariably show up in the marketplace.
4) I buy the sword if it is in my price range, sometimes saving 30% or more off the new price.
This works for me because I dont mind if they are used or if the blades are scratched (though many Albion owners keep
theirs in perfect condition). But if they have visible signs of use, function is still at as-new and I always end up
using them and cutting with them anyway.
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