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Peter Bosman
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 Posted: Fri 28 Dec, 2007 5:59 am Post subject: Scythian sword? |
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or?
I have some worn out hoof rasps and want to reuse the metal to make a short blade.
I have not made up my mind and am trying to find more information about the short blade the scythians used.
A striking example is
and thát, although very interesting, is quite beyond my skills 
Interesting is that quite a lot of the artwork shows complétely different blades looking more like a ´cinquedea´ shape.
The artwork also shows the scabbard strapped to the leg, quite often the ríght. Makes you wonder as the short blades depicted can probably be drawn with the right hand from here but it might just as well be artistic license....
The question if anyone out here has an illustration of an archeologic find?
Thank you,
peter
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Antal László
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| Posted: Fri 28 Dec, 2007 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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A friend of mine asked me about scythian blades. He was talking about a picture what he found in an art history book. As I can remember it was a sabre. Tomorrow I will ask him about this.
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John Cooksey
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| Posted: Fri 28 Dec, 2007 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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Crap!
I think I just "reported" your post accidentally, Peter.
My "report" consisted of saying to you that I would try to scan a few sketches and photos for you tomorrow, and asking whether you were interested in early or late stuff.
Sorry!
I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender.
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Sat 29 Dec, 2007 2:34 am Post subject: |
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Buenas John, and thank you.
I am most interested in (early) iron age (up to Roman period).
Early scythian iron blades were short(er) because the workshops were still accustomed to bronze.
Btw, look at these:
http://www.pitt.edu/~haskins/group9/kuloba15.gif
http://www.pitt.edu/~haskins/group9/kuloba14.gif
Looks like the same guy from both sides
Striking is:
- no bow&arrow
- short spear
- interesting hilt on appearantly short blade
ánd the obvious fact that this guy could just as well be germanic or celtic
Peter
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Ken Speed
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| Posted: Sat 29 Dec, 2007 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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Peter,
Do you think that those rectangular holes in whats left of the blade are evidence of inlays?
Ken Speed
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Sun 30 Dec, 2007 1:21 am Post subject: |
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Bunenas Ken. I have no idea. Piercing of blades is notthonh strange even if is not common. It is a rather insecure solution for inlays too.
Meanwhile, as luck has it, I have found an illustration of something I can aim for and on ebay of all places 
peter
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Douglas S
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| Posted: Tue 01 Jan, 2008 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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Look under Akinakes.
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Tue 01 Jan, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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Beat me to it. Some pics
  
Also the much later era Russian Kindjal may be a survival of a very very antique type perhaps going back to the Scythians
I also bet Manouchers book on Iranian arms and armor probably has some Scythian stuff but I haven't been able to get it yet.
J
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Wed 02 Jan, 2008 7:25 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for the suggestions.
I found the illustration on the wiki-page interesting:
Compare the sword with the ebay one.
The scabbard seems strangely large and this may be the artist representing the leather covered fur lined design.
peter
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Wed 02 Jan, 2008 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| Peter Bosman wrote: | Thank you for the suggestions.
I found the illustration on the wiki-page interesting:
Compare the sword with the ebay one.
The scabbard seems strangely large and this may be the artist representing the leather covered fur lined design.
peter |
That T-shaped pommel seems to be characteristic
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Eric Meulemans
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 02 Jan, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Peter Bosman wrote: |
The scabbard seems strangely large and this may be the artist representing the leather covered fur lined design.
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My first impression of the image in question is that the "scabbard" is actually a representation of a bow-case (Gorytos). Some quick looking around provided other such examples, for instance:
From http://parthia.com/parthia_horses_burris.htm, and also featured in the Osprey book Mounted Archers Of The Steppe by Antony Karasulas, where it is cited as having a built in dagger sheath.
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Wed 02 Jan, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Eric Meulemans wrote: | My first impression of the image in question is that the "scabbard" is actually a representation of a bow-case (Gorytos). Some quick looking around provided other such examples, for instance:
From http://parthia.com/parthia_horses_burris.htm, and also featured in the Osprey book Mounted Archers Of The Steppe by Antony Karasulas, where it is cited as having a built in dagger sheath. |
I assumed he was talking about what looks like a sword hilt to the right of the gorytos.
J
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Thu 03 Jan, 2008 1:50 am Post subject: |
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Yes it may be a bowcase.
The ting is you carry the bow the other way around and I thought to recognise blade shape rather than a bow shape in the sheeth.
It mat however áll be artist impression.
It is probably better to look at the very accurate art on golden objects as archeological finds, Herodotus´s text and that art correspond.
Concerning swórds this means it is, in the light of our present day perception of a sword, more apt to speak of daggers.
Anyway; I find it very interesting that the sheath was fixed on the right side. This coïnsides with my perception of the light cavalry way.
I am also very interested in the relativey, measured against our perception of them being born with a horse bow, large number of scytian mouted warriors withoút a bow but with a spear.
Playing around in the saddel with bow and spear I noted (and wrote) that the spear and bow appear to rule eachother out for the rider: you cannot shoot the bow while carrying a spear whereas the bow is a weapon for the larger distance of the two. As even the single gorytus doés get in the way, why then bother?
I am brooding over this... and have made myself a new spear. This time ash, not bamboo so I can compair the two. I have meanwhile also ordered a replica bronze spearhead.
This written I want to remark that there is no ´best´ way or ´best´ weapon: it all depends on the circumstances. I am simply always looking from the horse riders viewpoint and find this highly informative.
Back on topic: I will make the hoof rasp into a a simple stabbing blade.
peter
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Thu 03 Jan, 2008 1:54 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | I assumed he was talking about what looks like a sword hilt to the right of the gorytos.
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The (second) depicted statue appears to show the rider shooting the bow and...... with the sword in its scabbard on or close to the bow case.
peter
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B. Stark
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 03 Jan, 2008 10:52 am Post subject: |
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Skythian sword:
 Attachment: 51.08 KB
"Wyrd bi∂ ful aræd"
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B. Stark
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 03 Jan, 2008 10:57 am Post subject: |
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Some swords and daggers. Other than the very fancy type shown most are fairly simple.
Attachment: 49.69 KB
"Wyrd bi∂ ful aræd"
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Eric Meulemans
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 03 Jan, 2008 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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"Two bronze swords of the Scythian type. Paris, C.T. Loo Collection". From The Animal Style in South Russia and China by Rostovtzeff.
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Thu 03 Jan, 2008 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Peter Bosman wrote: | Yes it may be a bowcase.
The ting is you carry the bow the other way around and I thought to recognise blade shape rather than a bow shape in the sheeth. |
Hmm...interestingly, this article: http://www.atarn.org/chinese/scythian_bows.htm mentions that ancient Scythian bows might have been carried in a different way from later Eurasian bows. The straight "blade shape" may actually be arrows stored in arrow-pockets lined up on the outside of the bowcase--again, the article shows the probable configuration for this.
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Peter Bosman
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| Posted: Fri 04 Jan, 2008 2:31 am Post subject: |
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From a horseman´s view that is quite logical. The scythians rode bareback or with a saddlecloth wich later evolved with pommel and cantle and incorporated wooden strips. This means their ´saddle´ offered very different options during their rise, reign and the shift to other peoples. Thús the goryt would have had to be functional under evolving circumstances and will no doubt have evolved.
There is a huge difference between riding bareback and riding with the later type saddles. It will, and quite letrally, have been a foundation for different weapons and - use of weapons.
I have not yet fully develloped my idea but trying things out on my horses has provided me with quite a bit of food for thought.
The more I find out about it and about the practicallities, the more I get convinced of the role of the beaker people in the domestication of the horse and spreading of the horse mounted warriers. They introduced the horse wherever their culture appears and used the short composite bow. They also moved into asia.
I think it is quite logical the above mentioned rider could just as well have been a germanic warrior.
The ´sword´ as we now see the term will not have been a mounted man´s weapon untill the technical evolution made realy long ones possible. The consequences for the choice and use of weapons is large.
Also, the mounted warrior was a force to be feared far longer befóre long swords became possible than after.
But alas, I am still working on this and at least have a clear idea of what I am going to do with the hoof rasp
peter
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Kirk Lee Spencer
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| Posted: Fri 04 Jan, 2008 6:28 am Post subject: |
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Hi all...
Great thread.
I have a couple of images that may be of interest. The first is a Quiver found in the tholos burial at Vergina... believed to be the tomb of Philip II of Macedon. I have read that some scholars think it may be a gift or trophy from Scythian lands.
The second is a sword published in The Metropolitan Museums work called "The Golden Deer of Eurasia." It is said to date from the 4th century B.C. I am amazed at how the guard has characteristics of later scandinavian swords, particularly Peterson's type Z.
take care
ks
Attachment: 99.37 KB
Attachment: 94.48 KB
Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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This is a standard topic