wood sheaths vs. leather sheaths -- myArmoury.com

Matthew D G · Posted: Thu 08 Nov, 2007 3:12 pm Post subject:

Ok back to the main topic.... Whats better wood or leather? Wood is sounding like the best choice but leather (if the right leather is use) can make an ok sheath. correct?

Robin Smith · Posted: Thu 08 Nov, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject:

Alot of reenactors use leather sheaths, because as Elling has mentioned woodcore scabbards, although more historical, have a tendency to break when you fall on them. I have this theory that woodcore were more common amongst cavalry than infantry. Just my theory, nothing but practical experience to back it up...

Lafayette C Curtis · Posted: Fri 09 Nov, 2007 1:06 am Post subject:

Not necessarily. Horsemen can and do fall from their horses, and when it happens the fall would exert more force on the scabbard than an infantryman being knocked down. ;p

Russ Ellis · Industry Professional

Russ Ellis · Industry Professional

James Barker · Posted: Fri 09 Nov, 2007 7:21 am Post subject:

I think we need to take away the modern idea of long lasting items and put a military idea of swords and scabbards being equipment. Armor dented, shields broke, swords shattered, and I am sure people smashed the scabbards and replaces each as needed.

I have not broken any of the three wood core scabbards I made for myself.

Matthew D G · Posted: Fri 09 Nov, 2007 11:55 am Post subject:

Heres a theory...I'm going to make a leather sheath, If I line the inside with fur/felt would this make a hybrid of the 2?
It wont brake like a wood sheath and the sword wont be in contact with the raw leather. ideas? opinions? thoughts?

Matthew D G · Posted: Mon 12 Nov, 2007 4:28 pm Post subject:

Dose it make a difference what kind of fur I use? I'm thinking rabbit fur but is there some other kind that would be better?
Dose it matter how the fur is tanned?

James Barker · Posted: Tue 13 Nov, 2007 6:31 am Post subject:

I have worked with fur for historical clothing and I can tell you now it will suck as a lining in a scabbard; you are better off with a sheep skin. Rabbit is a long hair and the fur pulls out easy beyond that any small animal hide will have to be pieced together and the seems are week and easy to rip so sliding a sword in and out of a fur lined scabbard is likely to damage it. A sheep skin with the hair still attached is strong and large enough to cut too size strips; just not you will likely need to trim the sheep wool down to a short length to make your scabbard a workable size.

Your best option is to buy a yard of woolen cloth. It is cheaper than fur anyway.

Jesse Pointen · Posted: Wed 14 Nov, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject:

Id rather leather wooden sheaths get annpying as the get thrown around as you run.

Jared Smith · Posted: Thu 15 Nov, 2007 7:08 pm Post subject:

There is a small amount (dubious) of historical archeological evidence that some surviving wood core scabbards had cloth and leather layers over the wood slats. At least in some cases, the edge geometry of some wood slats makes it dubious to me that the wood was even directly glued. Some theorize that the wood slats were steamed and made to conform to the shape of the blade, and then cloth was glued over the wood. This could have created the effect of a composite structure. In fact, historical medieval glues (water resistant fish glues were well known in fact) were not nearly as good at gluing wood to wood, as they were at gluing hides and dissimilar materials to woods (animal hide and linen backings to bows for example.)

I make all of my own scabbards with a modern fiberglass overlay. They are strong enough to "jump on" like a trampoline or gymnast's springbord. Even the ones up to 36" length (my Sempach scabbard) are strong enough to shatter human limbs, but still weigh less than 1 lb after covering with leather. If you really manage to break one of these in a fall, the subsequent trip to the hospital emergency room will be a much greater ordeal than the damage to the wood core scabbard! Additionally, it can be pulled off with no perceived penalty in terms of weight or thickness.

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...d+scabbard

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...t=scabbard

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...t=scabbard

Matthew D G · Posted: Tue 20 Nov, 2007 8:00 pm Post subject:

What sheath would have been more popular during the Hundred Years war? Some pics of the sheaths that would have been used would be nice Big Grin

Chad Arnow · myArmoury Team

James Barker · Posted: Wed 21 Nov, 2007 7:38 am Post subject:

I took pictures of a wood only with silver fittings scabbard at the Museum of London last year; dated to 1350 or so:

http://www.historiclife.com/Events/Museums/MoL06Medieval.htm

Because the throat piece is so loose I feel this scabbard was likely leather covered but I have not written the museum to ask if there is any evidence of that yet.

Chad Arnow · myArmoury Team

James,
That wooden sheath may be a reconstruction. Oakeshott has a drawing of the sword it goes with in The Sword in the Age of Chivalry and it has those lockets on the blade as if it was found with the lockets corroded onto the blade.

James Barker · Posted: Wed 21 Nov, 2007 8:36 am Post subject:

Chad you are likely right as the wood is in great shape which is rare in extant finds like these.

Antal László · Posted: Sat 29 Dec, 2007 9:28 am Post subject:

Hello!
A friend of mine made a leather sheath for a historical fencer. It looked really good, but it was hard to draw the sword out of the scabbard. It felt like if the leather would stick on the blade. Does it eliminate this problem, if woolen cloth is glued on the inside of the sheath, or should it be more baggy?

P. Cha · Posted: Sun 30 Dec, 2007 5:00 pm Post subject:

I find it easier to draw from wooden scabbards vs leather when the sword reaches beyond a certain length (usually 32 inch blades or more). Might be a personal thing...shurg...so I like wooden better.

More to the idea of linning a leather sccabard with fur/wool/felt...well it can work just fine...but honestly the better idea is just to store it without the sccabard on. If it's on display just show off that pretty blade. If your storing it long term and not for display, I say get a riflecase to hold your oiled sword. Works great. If your worried about a keeping the sword in leather for a weekend at an event, assuming it's vegetable tanned leather, there should be no issue. Even for a week it isn't much of an issue (you can get small spots of rust but you can buff those out, it won't pit your sword unless you get the sccabard wet...in which case don't use it...oh and fur/wool/felt would just make that situation even worse).

Leo Todeschini · Industry Professional

I know it is going back a bit....

The commonest types of tanning are Chrome (non-historical), Veg tanned, alum and brain and the last 3 are historical and could be used. However the only one of these four methods that you can wet mould at home is the veg tanned and that is why I think most scabbard makers use it.

Veg tanned - can mould, high tannin content, often sealed on the back with a PVA sealer which is acidic, easy to work, goes stiff on drying. Very good except for the high tannin and sometimes presence of an acidic layer on the flesh side.

Chrome tanned - can't mould, quality from rubbish to very durable can chemically and heat mould. It will depend on what it is tanned with, but I don't believe that there is a particular content that steel doesn't like.

Alum - almost a salting treatment, makes very pale and soft leathers but if they get wet the salt leaches out and then you just have flesh all ready to start to rot.........

Brain tanning - 1 brain per skin, the fats in the brain do something to the hide to preserve it and it makes for a very durable (native Americans used it for moccassins) but soft leather.

Rawhide - limed and scraped but otherwise not tanned, will wet mould and also rot if it gets wet, useful for many applications but the uneven texture and oils make it a rough finish for any presentation surface.

As a scabbard maker I do get people who return wooden cored scabbards that have broken arguing I have done a shoddy job - its not magic wood, fall on it and they break, but old leather scabbards that have dried out also break - look at Breughal pictures for umpteen peasants with half scabbards. Wood cores do break, but allow for an easier withdrawl than leather, especially if the leather has got damp. I can say for certainty that a day of rain on the march and your leather scabbard will not be happy to release your sword at all.

Regards

Tod

Brian Robson · Posted: Wed 02 Jan, 2008 5:18 am Post subject:

Hi Tod,

Didn't realise you posted here! You probably don't know mw but I post on the LH forums as 'Biro' and bought a few rivets from you at the TORM a couple of months ago.

Anyhoo - something you just mentioned about a broken core.. I'm currently in the middle of making my first scabbard (Currently about 2/3 sewed - I'm sure its not good to leave it half done and have to re-wet it to continue, but my blisters had just had enough), and it struck me that the leather is very tight on the wooden core, and I can't see how I could ever get the core out if I wanted to...

So If the core ever did break, am I correct in thinking that the whole scabbard would be a write-off?

Cheers,
Brian