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Matthew D G
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 Posted: Tue 06 Nov, 2007 4:30 pm Post subject: wood sheaths vs. leather sheaths |
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Hello, my name is Matthew.
I'm new to myArmoury and have a few questions. This may have already been discussed but I cannot find the information I'm looking for.
What are the pros and cons on leather sheaths vs. wood sheaths? What are your personal preferences?
Is one better than the other? What would offer the best protection?
I have read through many topics on sheaths and can't find any answers to these questions  so any help would be great. Thanks 
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Tue 06 Nov, 2007 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Up until at least the renisance, wooden scabbards where more common. They offer better protection for the blade, and thick leather was expensive. Overall, are better for wear and storage.
Leather sheaths are generally better once the sword is drawn. They are less in the way, and wooden scabbards might break under combat conditions.
Yours truly was quite happy with his nice, new, historical wooden scabard, which he used for a aproximate 30 minutes before rolling down into a ditch and breaking it during a forest skirmish...
However, if you do not intend to wear the scabbard in combat, this isn't as much of a concern.
and, oh, welcome to the forum
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Matthew D G
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| Posted: Tue 06 Nov, 2007 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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If I where using the sheath for just storage what would be better? Would leather become saturated with oil after a few weeks/months of sword care? would this help keep the sword free of rust? sorry if I'm asking to many questions 
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 07 Nov, 2007 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| Matthew D G wrote: | | If I where using the sheath for just storage what would be better? Would leather become saturated with oil after a few weeks/months of sword care? would this help keep the sword free of rust? sorry if I'm asking to many questions |
Typically wood cored scabbards are lined with something be it wool or felt, or even velvet, this would have the same net effect of retaining whatever the sword is oiled with. I would caution those with wooden cored scabbards (or leather sheaths for that matter) that your sword does not need to be dripping with oil prior to replacement in the scabbard or sheath, a very light coat will do the job. I actually saw a guy one time with oil leaking out the bottom of his scabbard thanks to his over enthusiastic oiling.
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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James Barker
Location: Ashburn VA Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 365
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| Posted: Wed 07 Nov, 2007 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Russ Ellis wrote: | | Typically wood cored scabbards are lined with something be it wool or felt, or even velvet, this would have the same net effect of retaining whatever the sword is oiled with. |
Hi Russ
Not to call you out but I wanted to know what evidence for that practice are you using? Outside the remains from the Viking age that has traces of sheep skin with wool in the inside I don't know of any other extant examples with a lining.
Thanks
James Barker
Historic Life http://www.historiclife.com/index.html
Archer in La Belle Compagnie http://www.labelle.org/
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 07 Nov, 2007 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| James Barker wrote: |
Hi Russ
Not to call you out but I wanted to know what evidence for that practice are you using? Outside the remains from the Viking age that has traces of sheep skin with wool in the inside I don't know of any other extant examples with a lining.
Thanks |
To be honest I don't remember, I believe it was a passage I read in one of the Oakeshott books especially in relation to the information about the felt and velvet which I would not have thought of on my own. If I get ambitious I might try to dig it up.
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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Gary A. Chelette
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| Posted: Wed 07 Nov, 2007 11:57 am Post subject: |
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The tannin in the leather will rust the blade if kept in the leather sheath for a long time.
Wood is better for storage but heavy and stiff for wearing. I have made mine out of formed leather and it does well form me, but I do not store them in the leather sheaths for any amount of time.
Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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W. Schütz
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 07 Nov, 2007 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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I photographed and documented a late 15th cen type XVIIIe sword and its woodcore scabbard that was lined with wool just a few months ago, so be sure that that practice existed.
Unfortunatly i can not post the pictures from the museum due to the terms agreed on to be allowed to take photos.
Gentes scitote,
vicine sive remote,
quod claret Suecia
plebeque militia.
Last edited by W. Schütz on Wed 07 Nov, 2007 12:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Wed 07 Nov, 2007 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Gary A. Chelette wrote: | The tannin in the leather will rust the blade if kept in the leather sheath for a long time.
Wood is better for storage but heavy and stiff for wearing. I have made mine out of formed leather and it does well form me, but I do not store them in the leather sheaths for any amount of time. |
Not entirely correct. Some tanning methods leave leather quite safe for storage (if properly wiped down first). I actually had a smith recommend I store a higher end custom knife in its sheath.
Wood sheaths don't have to be heavy if made correctly. Most are simply too bulky.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 07 Nov, 2007 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| W. Schütz wrote: | I photographed and documented a late 15th cen type XVIIIe sword and its woodcore scabbard that was lined with wool just a few months ago, so be sure that that practice existed.
Unfortunatly i can not post the pictures from the museum due to the terms agreed on to be allowed to take photos. |
That's very interesting, thanks for posting that bit. Where ever the heck I read that noted that the wool was mostly in earlier period scabbards and the felt and velvet were used later. I personally prefer using wool exclusively due to the dyes that are typically found in felt and velvet these days that have a tendency to leach out of the fabric and onto blades when they are lubricated with gun oil or the like. Therefore it's nice to know that I possibly wasn't introducing as much of an anachronism as I thought I might be.
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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James Barker
Location: Ashburn VA Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 365
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| Posted: Wed 07 Nov, 2007 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| W. Schütz wrote: | | I photographed and documented a late 15th cen type XVIIIe sword and its woodcore scabbard that was lined with wool just a few months ago, so be sure that that practice existed. |
Excellent; I find it helpful to line a scabbard in wool to held keep the blade in tight.
| W. Schütz wrote: | | Unfortunatly i can not post the pictures from the museum due to the terms agreed on to be allowed to take photos. |
I understand that; I have lots of photos like that.
James Barker
Historic Life http://www.historiclife.com/index.html
Archer in La Belle Compagnie http://www.labelle.org/
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Gary A. Chelette
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| Posted: Wed 07 Nov, 2007 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: | | Gary A. Chelette wrote: | The tannin in the leather will rust the blade if kept in the leather sheath for a long time.
Wood is better for storage but heavy and stiff for wearing. I have made mine out of formed leather and it does well form me, but I do not store them in the leather sheaths for any amount of time. |
Not entirely correct. Some tanning methods leave leather quite safe for storage (if properly wiped down first). I actually had a smith recommend I store a higher end custom knife in its sheath.
Wood sheaths don't have to be heavy if made correctly. Most are simply too bulky. |
I was not aware of that. Can you say what kind of tanning is safe? I had an axe rust and pit bad in a leather sheath after just a few days.
Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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Glen A Cleeton
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| Posted: Wed 07 Nov, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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Chrome tanned leathers are not steel friendly. Vegatable tanned leather seems moreso The only sword in leather I had an issue with was from a bad batch from one source. I hosed down the interior of that scabbard with silicone spray and it seems to have eliminated the issue. I did have big issues with one pouch type sheath I had made from an old boot upper. Whether it was from residual salts, or the tanning method, I never botherd to explore but do know most of quality making sheaths and scabbards of leather use the vegatable tanned variety.
Cheers
GC
Last edited by Glen A Cleeton on Wed 07 Nov, 2007 2:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Gary A. Chelette
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| Posted: Wed 07 Nov, 2007 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Glen A Cleeton wrote: | Chrome tanned leathers are not steel friendly. Vegatable tanned leather seems moreso The only sword in leather I had an issue with was from a bad batch from one source. I hosed down the interior of that scabbard with silicone spray and it seems to have eliminated the issue. I did have big issues with one iouch type sheath I had made from an old boot upper. Whether it was from residual salts, or the tanning method, I never botherd to explore but do know most of quality making sheaths and scabbards of leather use the vegatable tanned variety.
Cheers
GC |
Thanks for the information!
Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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Robin Smith
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| Posted: Wed 07 Nov, 2007 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| James Barker wrote: | Hi Russ
Not to call you out but I wanted to know what evidence for that practice are you using? Outside the remains from the Viking age that has traces of sheep skin with wool in the inside I don't know of any other extant examples with a lining.
Thanks |
Note sure of the evidence they used, but this is in Edge and Paddock
"...The scabbard consisted of two thin laths of wood along either side of the blade, molded to its shape and probably glued together along the edges with animal glue , then covered with leather which could be elaborately tooled and embossed. The inside was lined with fleece, the lanolin in the wool probably helping to curtail rust; the lay of the wool was upwards to enable the sword to be drawn smoothly and easily, while its springiness helped to keep the blade firmly sheathed (important if the sword we being carried on horseback). In later centuries the knight's sword was carried in a tighter fitting wooden scabbard made without this fleece lining..." from Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight, Edge and Paddock, p.28 Emphasis Mine
A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
Last edited by Robin Smith on Wed 07 Nov, 2007 7:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Matthew D G
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| Posted: Wed 07 Nov, 2007 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the info I'm starting to get some answers. I had a thought, what if the inside of a leather sheath was lined with felt / fur? Would this make a leather sheath better for long term storage?
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 07 Nov, 2007 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Russ Ellis wrote: | | W. Schütz wrote: | I photographed and documented a late 15th cen type XVIIIe sword and its woodcore scabbard that was lined with wool just a few months ago, so be sure that that practice existed.
Unfortunatly i can not post the pictures from the museum due to the terms agreed on to be allowed to take photos. |
That's very interesting, thanks for posting that bit. Where ever the heck I read that noted that the wool was mostly in earlier period scabbards and the felt and velvet were used later. I personally prefer using wool exclusively due to the dyes that are typically found in felt and velvet these days that have a tendency to leach out of the fabric and onto blades when they are lubricated with gun oil or the like. Therefore it's nice to know that I possibly wasn't introducing as much of an anachronism as I thought I might be. |
Russ I have a custom Tom Maringer shortsword/dagger that I made a leather scabbard of sandwich ( modern ) construction where I glued acetate cloth on the inside surface on both sides of the of the leather: This was done in 1980 and the dagger has been stored in it for all this time and sometimes without being checked for years at a time. The blade is D2 which has chrome content just below what is considered stainless, so it may be more rust resistant than plain carbon steel? The point being that the last time I looked at the blade a week ago the finish was unblemished and as clean as the day I got it.
I did wipe with a silicon cloth or lightly oiled the blade over the years every time I have taken it out of it's scabbard to admire it or just to check on its condition
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 07 Nov, 2007 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
Russ I have a custom Tom Maringer shortsword/dagger that I made a leather scabbard of sandwich ( modern ) construction where I glued acetate cloth on the inside surface on both sides of the of the leather: This was done in 1980 and the dagger has been stored in it for all this time and sometimes without being checked for years at a time. The blade is D2 which has chrome content just below what is considered stainless, so it may be more rust resistant than plain carbon steel? The point being that the last time I looked at the blade a week ago the finish was unblemished and as clean as the day I got it.
I did wipe with a silicon cloth or lightly oiled the blade over the years every time I have taken it out of it's scabbard to admire it or just to check on its condition |
Hey Jean,
Yes, I think there are a lot of variables, as far as the steel type and the leather type used. I've heard similar reports from others. Some with no difficulties whatsoever, some with various types of staining or corrosion. Personally I like hedging my bets and not taking chances.
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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W. Schütz
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 08 Nov, 2007 11:29 am Post subject: |
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In the topic of leather we have to keep in mind that medieval leather is not exacly like leather now adays. Naturally tanned leather is not the same as hand-tanned leather. Authentic historical leather is problably one of the least explored parts of practical archeology. Handtanned leather is different to use, sew and cut in, different in feel and mostly alot tougher and more flexible in every way if done right.
Gentes scitote,
vicine sive remote,
quod claret Suecia
plebeque militia.
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This is a standard topic