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Sam Haverkamp
Industry Professional
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 Posted: Tue 23 Oct, 2007 11:47 pm Post subject: Japanese Shield |
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Greetings,
I am hoping someone out there can help identify this shield. I was told it was 13th - 14th century, Japan.
I have searched all of the literature and museum collections I can find, and have come up empty.
Thanks
Sam
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J Anstey
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| Posted: Wed 24 Oct, 2007 12:05 am Post subject: |
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Hi Sam
My opinion is that it may be Korean or Chinese. I would be very (but delightfully) suprised if it is Japanese.
Any pics of the back?
Cheers
Jason
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Sam Haverkamp
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 24 Oct, 2007 12:11 am Post subject: Shield |
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Jason,
I thought so as well, but was told it was Japanese. I was unable to find a similar Chinese, Korean shield either.
I will get some pics of the back shortly.
S
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Sam Barris
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| Posted: Wed 24 Oct, 2007 1:08 am Post subject: |
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I'd be extremely surprised if that was Japanese. I never saw anything like that in any of the museums in Japan. I'd vote for Chinese. The writing doesn't look Korean. And the antique shops in Hong Kong were overflowing with that kind of stuff last time I was there.
However, there are a number of other possibilities in Southeast Asia, like Cambodian or Thai. The demon faces would seem to be more appropriate for somplace like that, too. Interesting piece, whatever it turns out to be! 
Pax,
Sam Barris
"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." —Thucydides
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Anders Nilsson
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| Posted: Wed 24 Oct, 2007 3:06 am Post subject: |
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The shape of the shield almost look indian. My bet would be from somewhere between India and China.
Btw I have never seen a Japanese handheld shield, not even an illustration of one. I have only seen lagre "Pavaise" types, used to hide behind during a siege.
It would be nice to know what it is.
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Jerry Knox
Location: Palm Bay, Florida, USA Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 53
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| Posted: Wed 24 Oct, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: |
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There is an Okinawan buckler-type shield called a tinbe, used in combination called rochin-tinbe (rochin being a very small spear). Does it have a large single grip on the back like a buckler?
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Anders Nilsson
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| Posted: Wed 24 Oct, 2007 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| Jerry Knox wrote: | | There is an Okinawan buckler-type shield called a rochin, used in combination called rochin-tinbon (tinbon being a very small spear). Does it have a large single grip on the back like a buckler? |
Sounds interesting. Got any pics? When was in use and by who?
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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| Posted: Wed 24 Oct, 2007 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| Anders Nilsson wrote: | | Jerry Knox wrote: | | There is an Okinawan buckler-type shield called a rochin, used in combination called rochin-tinbon (tinbon being a very small spear). Does it have a large single grip on the back like a buckler? |
Sounds interesting. Got any pics? When was in use and by who? |
A Google search brings a few pics, such as this:
http://www.paw.hi-ho.ne.jp/ryukyu-kbujut/tinbee.html
It's a little known weapon of Okinawan kobudo. Not really intended for war as far as I understand...
I don't think such an ornate shield would be a tinbe. I would also be very surprised if it was Japanese...
--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Jerry Knox
Location: Palm Bay, Florida, USA Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 53
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| Posted: Wed 24 Oct, 2007 6:37 am Post subject: |
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I edited my previous post after searching for the words I used. Sometime between now and when I heard of it, i got the names confused in my head.
the TINBE is the shield, and you can see several on Google images, usually made from a turtle shell. I have not seen any that look exactly like the one here, but they were sometimes made of metal.
The fighting technique with these is very interesting from a WMA perspective.
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Sam Barris
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| Posted: Wed 24 Oct, 2007 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| Jerry Knox wrote: | | The fighting technique with these is very interesting from a WMA perspective. |
Something akin to I.33 perhaps?
Pax,
Sam Barris
"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." —Thucydides
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Gabriel Lebec
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Wed 24 Oct, 2007 7:57 am Post subject: |
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Hi Sam,
Japanese arms and armour have been my main focus of study for years and I am 99% certain that this is not Japanese. The coloration, decorative patterns, character of crafstmanship, and other elements make me think so even before factoring in its complete dissimilarity to any of the very rare Japanese shield types I have ever heard of.
Unfortunately I cannot even begin to suggest what then it would be, so I will remain interested in seeing if anyone can positively ID this piece.
Cheers,
-GLL
"The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of true art and true science." - Albert Einstein
________
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Gary A. Chelette
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| Posted: Wed 24 Oct, 2007 9:16 am Post subject: |
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This may be Mongolian. It's a chinese/Mongol shield I am almost sure. For the 32 years that I have been in Japanese martial arts and well studied in it's history, I can say that this is not Japanese.
You can say that Samurai carried their shields on their shoulders called a Sode.
Of course there is an early poem by Japanese warriors in around 663 AD. From Kanto plain:
"From today
Without regard for myself
I set out
A shield strong but humble
For our Sovereign Lord."
But that was very early period.
Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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Sam Haverkamp
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 24 Oct, 2007 9:58 am Post subject: HMMM |
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Thanks for all the replies. I love mysteries as long as they can be solved. This piece is very old and very rare from the obvious lack of similar examples. My camera is at my wifes store, as soon as I get it back I will take a pic of the back. It does have 2 metal handles integrated into the back, they fit nicely into the palm of your hand.
It appears to be a combat shield, If you have seen my postings on the Parade Armour I reproduce you will know I use this term loosely.
It was made in panels. The bosses are different metal and highly decorated. I am very impressed by the workmanship of this little shield (Measures 15"), the seams where the panels meet are very tight. There was no soldering used, it is all peened together.
I was not convinced this is Japanese in nature but was told the characters around the apex are japanese. Also there are counterclockwise swastikas in many places around the figures. I have asked the wallace collection to give their opinion, we will see what they come up with.
I wish I knew more....
Sam
Last edited by Sam Haverkamp on Wed 24 Oct, 2007 10:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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Sam Haverkamp
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 24 Oct, 2007 10:31 am Post subject: Back |
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Sorry this pic is so small. Turns out I did have one of the back on my PC, its just very tiny. Again, will take better pics when I get my camera back.
S
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Gary A. Chelette
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| Posted: Wed 24 Oct, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject: Re: HMMM |
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| Sam Haverkamp wrote: | Also there are counterclockwise swastikas in many places around the figures.
Sam |
Those are symbols of good luck. The Nazi's used it and we associate it with them more than an ancient symbol of good luck.
Some runes for good luck.
Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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Shayan G
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| Posted: Wed 24 Oct, 2007 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Anders Nilsson wrote: | The shape of the shield almost look indian. My bet would be from somewhere between India and China.
Btw I have never seen a Japanese handheld shield, not even an illustration of one. I have only seen lagre "Pavaise" types, used to hide behind during a siege.
It would be nice to know what it is. |
I agree, the four protuberances are common on Perso-Islamic and Indo-Islamic shields.
My guess, though I can't support it yet, is somewhere near Nepal or Tibet...this is going to be fun to finally discover, I feel like we should be placing bets! Just kidding (mostly) ;-)
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Sam Haverkamp
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 24 Oct, 2007 4:12 pm Post subject: Indo Persian/Indo Islamic shields |
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I do agree in theory that it is similar to some Indo-persian examples but the reppouse work and chasing is soooo unlike anything I have seen from that geographic area. Also the boss's are so much larger than typical indo persian shields. See picture of another one of my preciouses.
Sam
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Indo-Persian Buckler 18th century.
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Jerry Knox
Location: Palm Bay, Florida, USA Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 53
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| Posted: Thu 25 Oct, 2007 10:34 am Post subject: |
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The faces on the shield look like qilin (chinese chimera-type monster) to me. in Japanese they are called kirin. not that this helps determine where it's from, of course, but I find this piece fascinating.
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Sam Haverkamp
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 25 Oct, 2007 1:11 pm Post subject: Chimera |
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Jerry,
You are a sharp one. I was wondering if anyone would notice that detail. The Chimera is typically a Character seen on pieces inspired by Italian Grotesque. I have not been able to find a similar chinese or other asian example that was so close to this fantasy creature and not quite a bit more dragon-ish. Many of the pieces of European Parade armour In my collection have very similar creatures. So why the western influence? This is all just guessing of course.....
It is a very unusual piece, especially the sharp pointy boss in the center. I have never seen anything like it, darnit...
S
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Fri 26 Oct, 2007 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| Anders Nilsson wrote: | | Btw I have never seen a Japanese handheld shield, not even an illustration of one. I have only seen lagre "Pavaise" types, used to hide behind during a siege. |
It's because Japanese handheld shields do not come from the period most widely known and researched by modern military historians (the period after the rise of the samurai, that is, roughly from the 10th century onwards). You'd be able to see examples (mostly reconstructions) of it if you look for books or sites on Japanese military history dealing with the period before that, especially during the Nara and Heian periods--when the Japanese copied a great deal of mainland Chinese and Korean military technology and techniques, including the construction and use of handheld shields. Modern historians call these shields tedate ("hand shield") to distinguish them from the tate pavises.
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This is a standard topic