[Dawit Koho]

Hello

Have here somebody some experiences with making maile coif in way ,that line ,are around face it has to be tighten.
I want to try it ,but if I will start some advice ,will be better.

Here are some examples of inspiration.


http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images...tail3a.gif
http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images...etail5.gif
Morgan Bible (1250)France

http://www.metmuseum.org/works_of_art/viewOne...zoomFlag=1

Tomb Effigy of Jean d'Alluye,around 1250

http://www.joh.cam.ac.uk/library/special_coll...K26f8v.htm
Psalter -end of 13th to early 14th

Thanx for each help.
KOHO

[Chad Arnow]

Hello and welcome to myArmoury.com.

The prevailing thought among 20th and 21st century scholars is that ringmail/banded mail did not exist. What we see in those drawings is simply an easier way of depicting mail.

If you're talking about regular mail, with a flap that covers part of the face, that's a whole different proposition.

[David Welch]

George turner of ARMA figured it out several years ago.













It's just 4 in 1 with big rings and small rings, exactly as depicted on the black prince effigy:

[Chuck Russell]

sorry, but i dont see it. i see 2 distinct rows going oppisite ways. i dont know of any finds showing the way the gentleman form arma made

[Gabriel Lebec]

Hi Chuck,

All of the image examples Dawit posted seem to illustrate precisely that, rows of alternating directions. Or did you mean physical examples (i.e. extant armour)?

I don't know anything about mail myself, I'm just curious about your statement. Personally I can easily imagine such illustrations being stylized and not a realistic representation; many elements in medieval art are a weird mix of true and approximate.

Cheers,
-GLL

[Jeffrey Hedgecock]

What the bloke came up with admittedly looks cool, and perhaps plausible, but the mail depicted on the black prince effigy doesn't seem like a strong enough case for the technique; the rows look more or less the same size to me. Some rings look a little smaller, but it seems to be a bit of a stretch to use that as evidence for the radically different size rings as in the reconstruction.

In the reconstruction it appears that the small rings lie pretty much perpendicular to the body, which I imagine would not be terribly comfortable or strong. Easily smashed flat.

And how would all this work with riveted and or flattened rings??

[Dawit Koho]

I exectly know that way of knitting is one ring to 4.
But I want to try do some alternate of the standart that I see moust of coifs


I am sure that is not only stylization of autor ,because I saw it in more sources(statues and iconography )
And Morgan´s bible illuminator show both types of lines - http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images...etail3.gif
http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images...etail7.gif

different method

http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images...etail8.gif

And also my opinion is the this types of coifs aren´t solved with lappet over face ,because if you look - on this http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images...etail5.gif and also on tomb of Effigy of Jean d'Alluye ,then you see that one line is all arout face.

Advantage of this sorting - in this direction mail is more flexible and after tighting ring constellate around face.
But problem what I don ´t know is that ,chin is also cover - my view (but I don ´t try yet- that excatly my question)
is that coif must by rolled and lap on chin and they why is on these pictures displayed that linesgoes together - http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images...etail2.gif
http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images...etail4.gif

Have here someone this experience with this? Or some opinions if it is sci-fi

One more statue - http://img256.imageshack.us/my.php?image=schlwaechter13sh6.jpg (sorry but I can´t remember anything about this statue)

KOHO

[Ed Toton]

I have to agree, that based on the pictures, the effigy looks more like normal "4 in 1" pattern, rather than alternating rows connected by smaller rings. The ARMA examples look interesting, but I'd like to see a comparison with surviving historical examples.

[Dawit Koho]

Ed Toton : If you answer is target to me , I never spoke about smaller rings. I want make it from one kind of rings ,maybe mail trouser-leg (or how to call it in English) from smaller.

I am interested in "cut" or shape of coif ,because I don´t want to try on riveted ring and I am lazy to do some experiental one.

[Ed Toton]

Actually I was following up more on what Chuck said

[Chuck Russell]

as far as what i've seen from modern reenactors, they use a normal coif with a piece of mail that covers teh face that is attached to one side of the face. sometimes they are lined etc. when i get home from work i'll look at some european groups pictures to find you some references

oh and i was talking about teh arma mail vs the 4n1 effigy

[Rod Walker]

[Chuck Russell]

very nice rod. very nice.

[Dawit Koho]

Yes that good work ,but I think it isn´t very usual (or mainstream) ,but I has base on historical source.
I ´d like to make without this attaching on the face.

Any griffs or advises?

[Chuck Russell]

dawit, i'm not sure i follow you here. most of the reenactors (sorry i know i was gonna get pictures last night but got caught up in packing for an event) that i know all have mail that covers at least the mouth if not the nose with the side pulled mail.

[Rod Walker]

Hi Dawit, I am a little confused as well. If you are looking at a coif from the 13th-early 14th century then it will "usually" be intergral with the hauberk and will have a ventail like that I am wearing. This flap of mail is pulled across the face and hooks or ties up. It covers the front of the coif as well and when down allows the coif to be pushed back off my head.

If you want a coif with just a face opening that sits tight then you will need to make a coif that is split up the back and laces closed. This is more early to midish 14thC.

This advice comes with my usual caveat that there are next to no hard and fast rules and someone will always have more information.

[Aaron Schneiker]

Dawit,

I can understand the confusion here as it is hard to find a good clear example of how these coifs were constructed. For clarification of what others have said and to show my take on it I have included a couple of pictures. In one you see a coif that is of the same period as those you posted from the morgan bible. This one however shows a clear attachment point for the "flap" across the chin that others have mentioned. I know that the frames from the morgan bible don't show this attachment point or a clear "flap", but an explanation for the lines of the coif coming together could possibly be explained if you look at my other picture. I would guess that what you see there is an overlap of two separate pieces. I highlighted the area that I would see as the "flap" and showed a dashed line where the rest of the coif might continue underneath that "flap". This is just my interperetation, but in my experience if you try to make this style of coif look like period examples it is not possible to make an entirely enclosed coif where the neck area is nice and tight and you are still able to fit your head through. You either end up with a neck area that is very baggy, loose and uncomfortable or as was mentioned before, there needs to be some sort of opening that is either tied or strapped shut or in this case covered with a separate flap of mail.

Just my thoughts and observations.

[Dawit Koho]

Aaron: " I know that the frames from the morgan bible don't show this attachment point or a clear "flap", "
That is why I don ´t want the flap ,because I think it must by possible without it and also on 368 pics in Morgan bible ,where are so many details isn´t shown this flap.

My opinion is that ,in this bible could by illustrated 3 types of coifs.
I want try to do this ,there is my unfinished idea ,how it could be constructed - http://img295.imageshack.us/my.php?image=otm1...nmabp2.jpg I can´t draw how I think it may be on chin. My view is as I said it must by in some way rolled ,thus two layers of ring mail neting.

I no novice in style of making it ,so I also know ,how the rings behave. This ring mail complet is my work ,but it is no riveted. http://img527.imageshack.us/my.php?image=stp80889dd9.jpg

[Aaron Schneiker]

I would very much like to keep this discussion going to see what other information is out there. The close up picture that I posted above is the only one I know of that shows an attachment point for a separate "flap" of mail to cover the chin. As I look more closely at this picture, I guess I am not convinced that this is clearly depicting a separate "flap" either. Is there any art or effigy from this period that actually shows a detached "flap"? As Dawit has pointed out there are several depictions in the Maciejowski Bible that show these coifs pulled back from the head and I see no evidence of a separate "flap" in any of them. They all appear to be of continuous construction. Again if anyone has a clear period depiction of a coif with this "flap" well defined I would very much like to see it.

On a similar note, I would like to know a little more on the accuracy of the depictions in the Maciejowski Bible. I ask this mainly because this source clearly depicts the mail mittens as all mail. Meaning the mail covers the palms as well. It appears that it covers the bottoms of the feet on the chausses as well. I believe I have seen other sources from nearly this same period that depict the mittens as mail covering the palm also. Again the only source i've seen that shows a separate material covering the palm is the picture I posted of the knight in prayer. This shows a split leather or fabric palm. I would think this would be more reasonable as a mail covered palm would make it uncomfortable to grip your weapon as well as cause pretty heavy damage to the grip material of your weapon. So are there any more detailed references that show this one way or the other?

[Dawit Koho]

You I have go through many images from this period and it is hard to find ,any touch .