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Ryan A. C.
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 Posted: Tue 30 Mar, 2004 1:46 pm Post subject: NextGen vs. A&A |
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This is my first post so I would first off like to say hello to everyone on the forums. 
My question is concerning Albion's NextGen line of swords and A&A's line.
What is the differences between the two? Everything I have read says the NextGen line swords are suppose to be custom level swords on the production scale. Is their some sort of quality difference between the two or is it just the way they're made?
thanks
Ryan
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Stephen A. Fisher
Location: Kentucky USA Joined: 17 Oct 2003
Posts: 455
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| Posted: Tue 30 Mar, 2004 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Ryan,
And welcome to myArmoury.com!
This is just my thoughts on the matter. I don't think you can really compare the two. (except for a few models which you could compare handling characteristics, etc) Arms & Armor & Albion's line of swords are quite unique & different from from one another. A&A puts a lot of detail (and high quality) into their pieces, not to mention that they do complex hilts also. Albion also produces high quality swords and their new line of NextGens are highly desirable for their many different blade (Oakeshott Typology) and hilt offerings that are much desired by many and have not been available before.
just my 2 cents. 
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Jay Barron
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| Posted: Tue 30 Mar, 2004 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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A&A swords are copies of specific historical swords. The Albion next gen swords are based on historical sword designs but are not copies of specific swords. I haven't yet handled the next gen swords but based on what I know of Albion and the pics on their site, I'd say they are on a similar quality level as A&A. I own an A&A sword and have handled/cut with several others and can say with no reservation that their quality is top notch. As far as construction goes, A&A uses threaded pommel nuts for most of their swords while Albion next gens' pommels are peened on
Constant and true.
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Roger Hooper
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| Posted: Tue 30 Mar, 2004 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Barron wrote: | | As far as construction goes, A&A uses threaded pommel nuts for most of their swords while Albion next gens' pommels are peened on |
Albion's swords are now hot -peened. There is an article over at Albion describing this process. For some reason, the article keeps appearing and disappearing. With this method, the pommel is peened on before the grip is affixed. This way there is no compression from peened tang to pommel to grip to guard to blade shoulder. The hilt is thus unaffected by expansion and contraction of the wooden grip. The hilt stays tight and the grip doesn't split. I'm not explaining this that well - I hope the article at Albion gets put back up again.
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Ryan A. C.
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| Posted: Tue 30 Mar, 2004 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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It seems like peening seems to really all that differs other than the classification of blade and pommel types.
thanks for the replies
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Jason Dingledine
Location: Aurora, Ohio Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 219
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| Posted: Tue 30 Mar, 2004 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Roger Hooper wrote: | | Jay Barron wrote: | | As far as construction goes, A&A uses threaded pommel nuts for most of their swords while Albion next gens' pommels are peened on |
Albion's swords are now hot -peened. There is an article over at Albion describing this process. For some reason, the article keeps appearing and disappearing. With this method, the pommel is peened on before the grip is affixed. This way there is no compression from peened tang to pommel to grip to guard to blade shoulder. The hilt is thus unaffected by expansion and contraction of the wooden grip. The hilt stays tight and the grip doesn't split. I'm not explaining this that well - I hope the article at Albion gets put back up again. |
Here is a link to one of the articles:
http://www.albionarmorers.com/functional.htm
I believe that Howy plans to put a collected set of links up for these once all of the articles are complete.
Jason Dingledine
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Jay Barron
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| Posted: Tue 30 Mar, 2004 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Ryan A. C. wrote: | It seems like peening seems to really all that differs other than the classification of blade and pommel types.
thanks for the replies |
The bottom line is if you buy from either of these makers you're going to get a fantastic sword, great customer service and years of enjoyment! 
Constant and true.
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Tue 30 Mar, 2004 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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I have yet to see an Albion Mark first hand so I can't comment on them. That will be fixed, hopefully by June.
Currently I own two pieces by A&A. One a customized GBS. The other a yet to unveiled full custom that I'm giving myself time to grow familiar with before going post crazy over.
A&A can do some very amazing things at pretty darn impressive price points and as far as I know don't use a CNC machine (if that matters). I don't love the peened bolt but its not noticible unless you look for it. Quality and finish are consistantly high and have gotten better since I bought my first A&A piece (a Bohemian I no longer have) two or three years ago. Wait times are also very reasonable.
Basically if you can tell A&A what you want and it has a historic foundation they can make it work and work well.
Albion is at a point where I think it has great potential and they are certainly causing a great stir.
What's the difference between the two? Hard to tell without owning stuff from both companies. The peening and kinds of tools used may be the about it. Bottom line I don't think you can go wrong with either company.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Tue 30 Mar, 2004 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Barron wrote: | | A&A swords are copies of specific historical swords. |
While the hilts are faithfully inspired by the authentic pieces, I wouldn't say they're necessarily always copies. Everything has to have concessions at their price point. Also, the blades generally only replicate the profile and handling characteristics of the original sword. Often, the complex geometry isn't replicated. As an example, check out the GBS sword and notice the simplified hilt on the reproduction and the diamond cross-section rather than the fullered lenticular cross-section. Often these choices have to be made for financial reasons, but they're also made to make a piece more marketable to the modern audience.
| Jay Barron wrote: | | As far as construction goes, A&A uses threaded pommel nuts for most of their swords while Albion next gens' pommels are peened on |
A&A no longer threads their sword pommels, but rather peens them all for more authenticity. Coincedentily, Craig and I discussed this fact during our last conversation.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Eric McHugh
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 30 Mar, 2004 6:35 pm Post subject: What's the DIFFERENCE? |
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I'll tell you what the difference is: I can drink more Port than Craig!!!  
Find me on Facebook, or check out my blog. Contact me at eric@crownforge.net or ericmycue374@comcast.net if you want to talk about a commission or discuss an available piece.
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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 30 Mar, 2004 7:27 pm Post subject: Hahahahahahahaha {in an evil cackle} |
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Sooooo Eric
A duel at just after dinner time, Port at 2 feet across a nice table in a cosy nock of a pub, preferbly by the fire and the first bloke to fall out of his seat loses round one. I suggest a best 787 out of 1573. What say you villian :-)
Did I tell you what my brother got me for my fortieth bday. 40 year old port Newport 1963, a noted vintage. Saddly I am almost 41 and it no longer is with me. But it died as noble a death as any great hero of legend! It was pure nector.
Best my friend
Craig
PS Oh to not totally highjack the thread I make one of them and would be proud to own the other. Its a good day to be a sword buyer.
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 30 Mar, 2004 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know for how long A&A has been doing peened pommels, but I own three and have seen several others, and all were peened. I know the smallsword is dismountable, but I think it's a rarity in the lineup, what with having a sport blade fixed to it instead of an A&A made blade.
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Tue 30 Mar, 2004 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe if Craig visits again we can get him to solve the contruction mystery.
My A&As are certainly peened and also look like they use a pommel nut which I assume indicates tang threading. I have not tried disassembling either sword, so I am basing this on external observation only which could obviously be decieving.
Regardless they are nice and tight. No rattles...no complaints.
BTW...the new one is growing on me. I've gotten to the point where I try very hard not to get over excited on new arrivals but this one is being very demanding. Wants to be held all the time.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
Last edited by Joe Fults on Tue 30 Mar, 2004 8:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Glen A Cleeton
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| Posted: Tue 30 Mar, 2004 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | | I don't know for how long A&A has been doing peened pommels, but I own three and have seen several others, and all were peened. I know the smallsword is dismountable, but I think it's a rarity in the lineup, what with having a sport blade fixed to it instead of an A&A made blade. |
My pair of A&As are peened and threaded. The little truncated pyramid block is threaded onto the tang. This has proven useful as the cross (bronze) settled on my BP. My GBS was second hand and it looked like the previous owner had tried to tighten things with just a hammer (probably didn't realize what was up).
The Albion method looks quite secure and does not depend on a compression fit to hold the whole mess (figuratively speaking) together. They are producing some really georgous looking stuff with a lot of thought going into the manufacture.
Jay Barron's little A&A riding sword is a knockout beauty and displays a cute litlle peen block as well (I imagine it's threaded too).
A&A, I have to consider them kind of the godfather of modern American sword reproduction. What Craig says of the market speaks well of the industrys offerings.
You makes your choices and puts your money down. Dang, they make it soooo hard to save for the oldies.
Cheers
GC
let's see maybe one of them hollow ground thingies, nope, nope, ahhh… a Saxony, wow looky at the migration things… you know, that Henry V is still looking mighty good. I don't bookmark either site because my credit cards have a habit of jumping into hand while browsing
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Tue 30 Mar, 2004 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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My suggestion is to peruse the review section, there are quite a few reviews of swords by both companies. These will give you a pretty good idea of where both makers are coming from with their approaches. Both will give you a quality product that you can be proud of.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Timothy Gulics
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| Posted: Wed 31 Mar, 2004 8:00 am Post subject: |
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Hmm. That's a nice article on Albion's site. But after reading it, I have to wonder why Albion went with 'compression assembly' in the first place.
I personally cannot say if a cold-peened sword is any worse than a hot-peened sword, although Albion seems to think they are 'below standard' and primarily the reason they came up with the NextGen line. Obviously there are many swords out there, some being Exceptionally Great, that feature cold-peening or even a pommel nut, but I'm still curious as to if cold-peening is really a substandard construction method as Albion makes it out to be. Hmm.
I'm glad Albion is upgrading their FirstGens to the new technology. Last I heard from Mike, they were working on upgrading the Agincourt next. But does this move severely impact the value of the older cold-peened FirstGens?
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Ryan A. C.
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| Posted: Wed 31 Mar, 2004 9:44 am Post subject: |
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I wondered about that too Timothy. Maybe someone here can answer that?
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Wed 31 Mar, 2004 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Timothy Gulics wrote: | Hmm. That's a nice article on Albion's site. But after reading it, I have to wonder why Albion went with 'compression assembly' in the first place.
I personally cannot say if a cold-peened sword is any worse than a hot-peened sword, although Albion seems to think they are 'below standard' and primarily the reason they came up with the NextGen line. Obviously there are many swords out there, some being Exceptionally Great, that feature cold-peening or even a pommel nut, but I'm still curious as to if cold-peening is really a substandard construction method as Albion makes it out to be. Hmm.
I'm glad Albion is upgrading their FirstGens to the new technology. Last I heard from Mike, they were working on upgrading the Agincourt next. But does this move severely impact the value of the older cold-peened FirstGens? |
As I understand it hot-peening is superior due to the fact that the metal is more maleable to the hammer. When working the metal in a cold state more force is required, thereby putting undue stress on the components.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Roger Hooper
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| Posted: Wed 31 Mar, 2004 10:40 am Post subject: |
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The grip can't be already mounted during hot peening, as it will get scorched.
One problem with cold peening, is that the hilt is held tight by downward pressure onto the shoulder. If the grip expands, the pressure may split it; if it contracts, the hilt gets loose. A traditional cold peening ala Del Tin can be fixed, when it gets loose, but it is a relatively laborious process. The nice thing about a pommel nut, (A&A and ATrim) is that that pressure can be restored easily.
One thing I don't understand about the hot peening process -- What is holding the guard tight against the shoulder? Is it a tight, forced mechanical fit, or is it that fit, plus some bonding that might occur between the guard and the tang during the hot peening process? Or something else?
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Wed 31 Mar, 2004 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| Roger Hooper wrote: | | The nice thing about a pommel nut, (A&A and ATrim) is that that pressure can be restored easily. |
Which current A&A swords have pommel nuts?
A couple have rivet blocks--a very nice historical detail--but are not threaded. As Craig told me recently, and I mentioned above, they've changed to making all swords (smallsword and stage weapons excluded) with peened, not threaded, tangs.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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