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Gregory J. Liebau




Location: Dinuba, CA
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PostPosted: Fri 17 Aug, 2007 5:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chuck Russell wrote:
that russian helm has my interest. do you know what it is based off of? shouldnt it be a spangen construction? or is a raised bowl?


I believe it is based off of the original I'm posting an image of here. It is actually a raised and fluted bowl construction. Although there are other, similar finds from throughout Russia, this is the only one I can think of off the top of my head that has such a nasal and eyepiece, and is obviously made for hanging a mail drape from.

Armour & Castings, who I've ordered custom work from and am extremely satisfied with, does a nice reproduction of it for a mere $200 or so USD after shipping. Although it looks sloppy, I believe the fluting on this is close to the original, but I don't have images from other angles available at the moment. I remember researching it some time ago and coming to that conclusion, though.

Rus Helmet

-Gregory-



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Russian Helmet.jpg


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Troy G L Williams




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PostPosted: Fri 17 Aug, 2007 7:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Matt.

That pretty much settles it for me. It is a neat looking helmet but I'm not into the fantasy armour. I'm trying to ensure that any item I purchase has some sort of authenticity. Thank you to all and your assistance. I have decided to go with the helmet below from Outfit4Events.com. They have been a pleasure to work with. The helmet is made to measure.



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v/r,
Troy Williams

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Gregory J. Liebau




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PostPosted: Fri 17 Aug, 2007 7:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Troy, that's a very poor reconstruction of the Gjermundba Helmet. It's got enough problems to make it not worthy of the money, while other reconstructions with more accurate designs can probably had for similar money. Here's the original and a reproduction from Manning Imperial showing the correct construction. Although the general idea behind the production piece you posted is correct, things like the over-sized rivet heads make it look awkward in comparison to originals.

-Gregory-




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Gjermundba Helmet.jpg


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Steve Grisetti




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PostPosted: Sat 18 Aug, 2007 6:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nicolas Bertolero wrote:
I have a replica of the Coppergate helmet from Museum Replicas. It is an Anglo-Saxon spangenhelm but was found in a Viking stronghold in York. The vikings might have made similar helms or adopted this style as well.

[/img]

Nicolas, any comments (quality, accuracy, etc.) you can offer on the MRL Coppergate helm would be of interest.

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Chuck Russell




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PostPosted: Sat 18 Aug, 2007 10:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

no, as on the coppergate and many other early helemts like these i believe the rivets are flush with the surface. meaning the heads are on the inside and they are peened on the outside into a recessed hole.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sat 18 Aug, 2007 12:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have removed the posts from Grzegorz Kulig that show and discuss his own work. Makers are only allowed to promote their items in the "Makers and Manufacturers" forum. Please see This Announcement to Vendors for further information.

I encourage Thorkil (Grzegorz Kulig) to re-post the very informative discussion that accompanied the promotional stuff. That was very good stuff.

In the future, I want to suggest that makers participate in these types of discussions with information as any other user would. The line is crossed, however, when it comes times to showing their own work and discussing that. They are asked to discuss the historical antiques and the like, but not the stuff they make. Makers are even encouraged to tread carefully when talking about other makers' work: this part is common sense, of course. Happy

Should there be any questions or comments about this, please direct them to me via private message rather than cluttering up this topic.

Thank you.


ps: I've talked to some other makers about this recently. I'll try to pay more attention again...

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Grzegorz Kulig
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PostPosted: Sat 18 Aug, 2007 1:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rules are rules. Happy

I am attaching one more photo of original helmet.

In my opinion Manning Imperial replica of Gjermundbu is quite good, regarding to all other "monsters" I've seen before. But I see some errors, here. The spectacle should be a bit higher and rivets are in my opinion to small. Also the spectacle is made of a bit too thin steel plate, because in original helmet it has about 3mm.

Answering at your questions Hugo. You were asking if there are rivets in original helmet, like on my and Manning Imperial replica. I attached photo of the helmet with rivets marked on red and remains of chain-mail marked on blue. It is difficult to see those rivets, because of the corrosion, but I have spent so many time watching at photos of original items and wondering about its construction that I see it without any problems. Wink
The case of chain-mail is controversial. As you see on this photo, there are only two places, where remains of the mail is visible and they are only pairs of rings, when the edge of the band is well preserved, so we could see holes or rings if they would be there. I don't say that there wasn't a chain-mail, there, because it is impossible to say it for sure. But, as well, there could be steel straps attached to the helmet on those rings. Or, any other neck guard. Maybe we will know some day. Happy

Chuck : I must disagree with you. As you see on attached photo, rivets "heads" are well visible, for example on spectacle and on one rib. They are just not good preserved. Also, rivets are visible very well on many other helmets, for example : Ultuna, Vendel or Valsgarde helmets and they are all helmets from the same period as Coppergate.

Regards,
Thorkil.

P.S. I hope you will understand something, as my English isn't very good. Blush



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Chuck Russell




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PostPosted: Sat 18 Aug, 2007 1:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Happy and thats what makes it fun no? hehehe. i still believe a lot of these are peened on the outside and sudo/flush but i could be wrong, been wrong before Wink


the large riveted heads are a hinder to a helmet. a sword can jam on them cause the forse of the blow to impact the wearer and not slide off as a glancing blow. but thats neither here nor there. all too often i think the modern replacas (mine included) use overly large rivetted head cause it just looks cool hehehe
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Hugo Voisine





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PostPosted: Sat 18 Aug, 2007 2:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
all too often i think the modern replacas (mine included) use overly large rivetted head cause it just looks cool hehehe


Agree with that. Laughing Out Loud

Quote:
Answering at your questions Hugo. You were asking if there are rivets in original helmet, like on my and Manning Imperial replica. I attached photo of the helmet with rivets marked on red and remains of chain-mail marked on blue. It is difficult to see those rivets, because of the corrosion, but I have spent so many time watching at photos of original items and wondering about its construction that I see it without any problems.
The case of chain-mail is controversial. As you see on this photo, there are only two places, where remains of the mail is visible and they are only pairs of rings, when the edge of the band is well preserved, so we could see holes or rings if they would be there. I don't say that there wasn't a chain-mail, there, because it is impossible to say it for sure. But, as well, there could be steel straps attached to the helmet on those rings. Or, any other neck guard. Maybe we will know some day.


Thanks for those very informative highlights Thorkil. Happy

Since the second pair of rings seems to be at the back of the helmet, wouldn't that be impractical for a strap attachment ? Do you think those rings could have been there to attach cheekplates instead of a mail aventail ?

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Mais on ne se bat pas dans l'espoir du succès !
Oh ! non, c'est bien plus beau lorsque c'est inutile ! »
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Troy G L Williams




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PostPosted: Sat 18 Aug, 2007 10:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thorkil, What is the material that is peeling away from the helmet? Is that just the corrosion of the steel?

Is there evidence of leather covered helmets or leather helmets themselves? Question

v/r,
Troy Williams

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Chuck Russell




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PostPosted: Sun 19 Aug, 2007 5:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"it" should be steel. as in all of the replications the bowls are made from 4 spangen pieces and 8 spangen straps (4 on the outside and 4 on the inside) BUT if you notice where there is no seem where the spangen strap ends. is teh bowl all one piece? or has time or the maker fused it together? questions questions
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Grzegorz Kulig
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PostPosted: Sun 19 Aug, 2007 8:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chuck, I think you are wrong in rivets case. Wink
I don't know about other armourers, but I never put in replicas things, just because I think it look better. I study very carefully photos of original to be sure how to make really good reconstruction. I am a bit "crazy" and "fanatic" in this case. Wink So, saying something like this about my work is a bit dangerous. Evil Razz Wink

And now evidences. I attached small part of helmets, that has very visible rivets, and in some cases very big heads. And from my own practice of fighting (4 years of fight with steel sword and axe, wearing helmet with big rivets -4mm- and with head shots) I must say that big rivets aren't a hinder to a helmet at all. Wink
You have to also notice, that the sword is in nowadays reneectment an usual weapon, but in Early Medieval and even later periods it was an exclusive and very expensive weapon! Most of warriors used at the time spears and axes.
Second thing, that most of reenectors don't seem to notice, is that helmet also was an exclusive equipment. Most of warriors didn't wear it.


Hugo : I wasn't writing about leather straps, but steel straps - narrow plates of steel, something like in helmet from Broa, or Ultuna, or Valsgarde etc etc, but not on hinges, but on those rings. But this is only hypothesis! We can't say anything for sure. And about cheek plates - the same, nothing for sure, but in my opinion rather not, I would better say yes, for chainmail in this helmet than for cheek protection.


Troy : this material you are asking about it is just the helmet, or better : preserved parts of this helmet. Wink It is steel that has preserved. And what you see under that layer it's just some kind of base made probably by archeological conservator, just to put all parts of helmet together. You can even see a wire keeping helmets parts with "the base".

If you are asking about the evidence of leather helmet in Pre-Viking and Viking Era - I don't know anything about it. maybe there are some evidences, but I didn't hear or read about it. There is helmet from Beenty Grange with plates of horn between ribs.


BTW : many reenectors are wearing helmets in Vendel/Valsgard style. Those were royal, highly decorated, difficult in construction and ceremonial helmets. And they weren't for fights, only for show. Those are helmets found in king's graves. Don't you thing it is a bit funny when normal warrior wears royal helmets and fights in it? Wink



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spangenhelm2, 5-6 w., hermann historica.jpg
Spangenhelm, 5-6 cent. This helmet have been already described by Nathan : http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=7689&highlight=herman+historica

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valsg6.jpg
Valsgärde 6 helmet, pre-viking era / migrasion period. late 7th century. Helmet found in Valsgarde cementary, Uppland, Sweden. This is one of the world-famous Migration Era cementary with very rich graves.

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groningen%20helm.jpg
Helmet from Groningen, Netherlands. Dated on 800-900 AD. Probably Frisian helmet.

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ultuna_front1a.jpg
Helmet from Ultuna, Uppland, Sweden. probably 7th century. It is included to the Valsgärde/Vendel helmets type, but is a bit different in construction.

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ultuna_left1a.jpg
The same helmet from Ultuna, Uppland, Sweden.

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bremenfockespangenhelmhx9.jpg
Helmet from Bremen, Germany, now (probably) in Focke Museum. Very similar to Groningen find, but we don't know if they were made in the same workshop. It is supposed to be Merovingian helmet.

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kazazovoA.jpg
Helmet from Kazazovo, Kuban, 9th cent., Khazar helmet. It has nasal protection and very untypical construction.

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Last edited by Grzegorz Kulig on Mon 20 Aug, 2007 11:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sun 19 Aug, 2007 9:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thorkil; ( Note, I assume from your signature line " Please call me Thorkil " that this is O.K. or your preference ? )

Thanks for the pics of original helms as some of these I have never seen before and that is always a pleasant surprise since most reference books published over the years ( decades ) tend to show pics of the same originals over and over again and less well known pieces get little exposure.

There are probably many pieces in museum " storage " that may not have been considered " grand " enough to show by " some "curators more interested in art history but that would be very informative to those who value military and arms history as functional designs and not just as art objects.

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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Sun 19 Aug, 2007 10:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I really am not sure I agree that these helmets were only intended for display or burial. The boats buried there were not decorative boats nor many of the other items buried there, why assume the armour was then? In a warrior culture to me it would seem an insult to bury one with a plaything. Imagine a wooden sword and wooden horse buried with them. Not much sense to me. In the end it is impossible to answer this question but many people said the same of the coppergate/york helmet until someone indicated it had damage that appears to have been dealt in its working lifetime possibly from a weapon. I agree it would be funny of everyone had such a helmet, it would give new meaning to all chiefs and no indians.

AS far as how the helmets are assembled. I think either the sandwich method with single line of rivits or double both are fine for accuracy. If every one based their helmet off the one vikign era find it would be a very poor representation on vikings Big Grin . THe same with having rivit head showing or flush. Both are used. I got to get a close look at the coppergate and all the rivits that are structural are flush. That said there are plenty with raised heads as well.

RPM
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Hugo Voisine





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PostPosted: Sun 19 Aug, 2007 1:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the pictures Thorkil. I have never seens those before (like many of us I guess), can you give some references ? Where they were found, and during what time period they were made ? Any information would be appreciated. Happy

Spiky helmets, nice... now, do you have a picture of a viking helmet with horns ? Laughing Out Loud Just joking.

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James Arlen Gillaspie
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PostPosted: Sun 19 Aug, 2007 1:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looking at the rivetted corner of the 'spectacles' of the Gjermundbu helmet, it looks to me as though the upper arm of the spectacle is overlapped by the lower arm. Does anyone else see this?


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Hugo Voisine





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PostPosted: Sun 19 Aug, 2007 1:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi James,

Isn't that an inlay motif ratter than a demarcation line between two riveted pieces ?

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Grzegorz Kulig
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PostPosted: Sun 19 Aug, 2007 3:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugo Voisine wrote:
Hi James,

Isn't that an inlay motif ratter than a demarcation line between two riveted pieces ?


Yes, Hugo, you are right : this is an inlay.

Jean : no problem! That was nice to read those words of appreciate. Happy

Hugo, I will write some references tomorrow, OK? It is already late, here in Poland and I am very tired.

So, good night! Wink
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Troy G L Williams




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PostPosted: Sun 19 Aug, 2007 10:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thorkil, Thanks for the pictures. Those were most interesting. I have to agree with Hugo, the spikey helmet is quite unique. It's funny how there isn't the "standard" spectacles with all the images as some would think. Even some of the images have a VERY decorative nasal guard. Viewing replica helmets I would've thought this to be a "fantasy" thing but I see it is not always the case. Still I believe that the MRL Embossed Viking Helmet is a fantasy piece for mere enjoyment and decoration. Do you have images of helms with bone protection? I would think that a leather helmet would provide some protection and be cheap for the less fortunate viking age foot soldier. Question
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Sun 19 Aug, 2007 11:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Troy,

The only problem with bone and leather is they are unlikely to survive at least intact. The only helmet I know of that was horn was the Benty GRange Helmet that is kept in the Sheffield Museum.

http://www.idigsheffield.org.uk/textonly/toob...mp;level=1

Here is a picture of the helmet

http://www.heorot.dk/bentygrangehelm.jpg

AS can be seen on the museum website the horn panels were on the outside of the frame. Apart from this one I know of no helmet that uses horn or leather. I found in one version of the Anglo Saxon Chronicle mention to leather helmets and armour but have since lost the foot note and been unable to refind it...

RPM


Last edited by Randall Moffett on Mon 20 Aug, 2007 4:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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