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Ben Sweet
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 Posted: Tue 07 Aug, 2007 11:16 pm Post subject: 17th cent. Spanish Cup Hilt pics |
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new camera so time to update with better pics..one I picked up from a not anymore local heavy antique sword collector...
 [/b]
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Tue 07 Aug, 2007 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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That's a great closeup of the running wolf! Very nice with some inlay still in there. What's your thoughts about the grip? What is it made from? Do you believe it to be original? Overall, I really dig that piece and it's great to see you continue in the direction of antiques. (a direction I would like to take at some point.... maybe)
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Wed 08 Aug, 2007 6:17 am Post subject: |
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Is that a chequered ebony grip?
Jonathan
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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 08 Aug, 2007 7:12 am Post subject: Grip Material |
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| Jonathan Hopkins wrote: | Is that a chequered ebony grip?
Jonathan |
Might be, but my guess would be horn. I have a smallsword with a horn grip and the sheen and texture look very similar.
Craig
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Bryce Felperin
Location: San Jose, CA Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 552
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| Posted: Wed 08 Aug, 2007 10:45 am Post subject: |
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I really like that hex-shaped blade too. You don't see many of those on rapiers, at least on the reproduction market, with that kind of a blade. The blade shape definitely adds some character to the sword.
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Wed 08 Aug, 2007 10:46 am Post subject: Re: Grip Material |
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| Craig Johnson wrote: | | Jonathan Hopkins wrote: | Is that a chequered ebony grip?
Jonathan |
Might be, but my guess would be horn. I have a smallsword with a horn grip and the sheen and texture look very similar.
Craig |
A definite possibility--I had not considered that. I also wanted to add that I, too, really like this sword. It is simple and utilitarian. It looks like a military sword rather than civilian, but I'm not a rapier afficionado. (Need to dive into Norman's "Rapier to Smallsword"!)
What would date this sword to the 17th century as oposed to the 18th century? I am curious because I have seen similar swords dated as late as c.1800. This, like the bilbo sword in the recent thread seems to have spanned quite a period.
Jonathan
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Ben Sweet
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| Posted: Wed 08 Aug, 2007 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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I think the handle is horn due to the feel of it and lack of grain along with the coolness to the touch since wood feels warm to me...The collector Steven Crain who I bought it from had dated it as 17th cent. and Steven is pretty well known in the antique sword community also for knowing his antiques (some of you here might have bought from him or from his ebay account)...Steven if your lurking time to show up  For the price I paid I just had a little bit of doubt since I knew nothing of antiques and still dont...At one of the Morro Bay sword meets a few years ago with Eljay (see what you guys are missing when you dont go!) he got to check it out and he confirmed that it was original and having talks with another local antique sword nut he also confirmed it was with also wanting to pay double what I did for it...and I know somebody will ask here and I have no problem saying I paid $600 for her...Sweet's steel steal.
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Wed 08 Aug, 2007 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Ben Sweet wrote: | | I paid $600 for her...Sweet's steel steal. |
Absolutely disgusting. 
As I said before, it is very nice. Congratulations on an excellent piece and a great deal!
Jonathan
ADDED: On page 12 of Neumann's "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" there are two similar swords, one of which has a chequered horn grip. Neumann dates it to c.1650, and the other 1670-1750 (this one has a wood grip). Both are described as swords for the common soldier.
JOnathan
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Ben Sweet
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| Posted: Fri 10 Aug, 2007 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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by request...my weight scale is m.i.a ....when I pick up a new one I'll post the weight
28.35mm wide @ the cup
22.mm wide @ center
9.7mm @ 25.41mm back from the tip
6.40 thickness @ the cup
4.27 thickness @ center
1.65mm thickness @ 25.41mm back from the tip
12.27mm thickness @ the ricasso
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Sat 11 Aug, 2007 8:09 am Post subject: |
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So is the grip actually horn scales?
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Eric Myers
Location: Sacramento, CA Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 214
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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 11 Aug, 2007 2:47 pm Post subject: 17th/18th C. |
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Hi guys
This is a tough call for many swords of this type to nail down a date and place. They would have been made in large numbers for the issue to troops and the amount of variation in a particular stye can be great.
Some points that I would research to id to a time frame would be the plain strips down the side of the checkered grip. This surprised me on this piece, does not mean it was not done often just that I have not come across it often. Second the style of the filet at the base of the cup where the ricasso goes through. This would seem to imply an earlier date like the 17th C. but the relative simplicity of it would make me look for other examples to conincide with. Third I would check the rim of the cup, is it an increase of thickness of the material or is it roled in or out to creat the rool? IT seems indistinct in the photos. The pommel and grip in general do not challenge the 17th C. date though the quillons seem a bit short but may well indicate a style more than a date.
Eric, that is not a false ricasso but the sleeve of the filet at the bottom of the cup that the ricasso passes through. This is a common detail for cup and plate guards having a reinforced element for the ricasoo to pass through that is then attached to the cup by some rivet or screw technique.
I would also check carefully for any markings or numbers as a standard issue item like this may well carry such in some spot on the item. While it will not probably give you an id it will be something to check against other items of similar form to compare to.
The last thing that occure to me is that it may well be a 17th C blade and 18th C hilt. This would have ben a common thing to do both by armories of the period as well as those selling items at a later date.
Best
Craig
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Sat 11 Aug, 2007 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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Craig,
Thank you for all the great info!
Jonathan
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This is a standard topic