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Troy G L Williams
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 Posted: Wed 18 Jul, 2007 11:27 pm Post subject: Historic Daggers |
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Greetings friends,
A couple of things. First, I'm looking for historical daggers of the 14th Century to purchase. They must be something that can be used and that I can be proud of. Second, a sheath or scabbard for the dagger. I notice there are many people out there that create custom scabbards for swords but the poor dagger is left out there.
How was the dagger attached to the belt in the 14th century?  I have noticed in images that the dagger appears to be paired with the belt pouch or purse. In some instances it appears to be attached by a chain. It seems fashionable to wear a plaque belt low on the hips in the 14th century. How was the dagger and/or sword attached to this type of belt? Currently Albion is working on "The Knight" sword for me and Christian Fletcher is designing the scabbard with an integral belt. They have been great. 
I hope this finds you all well as I am in Iraq attempting to heal from a rocket attack. Not so fun let me tell ya.  Anyway, I thank everyone in advance. This is a great website and I enjoy reading the forums.
v/r,
Troy Williams
"It’s merely a flesh wound." -Monty Python and the Holy Grail
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Justin King
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 19 Jul, 2007 6:56 am Post subject: |
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A look through the reviews, collections and manufacturers index should turn up some sources for daggers and scabbards, from production and custom makers. The rest of your questions can be better answered by others here, I think.
You (and all the troops there) have my gratitude and my best wishes in recovering from your injuries, God bless.
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Sean Flynt
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 19 Jul, 2007 8:29 am Post subject: |
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I would second the vote for Arms and Armor and Tod's stuff, they are both excellent folks to deal with. Additionally although he is far to modest Justin King makes an OUTSTANDING (I AM going to do that review Justin) dagger as well. As for scabbards, pretty much anyone that does sword scabbards will also do dagger scabbards.
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Thu 19 Jul, 2007 8:55 am Post subject: |
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Troy,
Thanks for the post. Best wishes on a speedy recovery. 
14th century daggers have been discussed a little bit before:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=9853
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=10195
There aren't a lot of reproductions out there because there aren't a ton of identified surviving daggers from that era. We know rondel daggers were in use, as were ballock daggers and baselards (baselards seem to have been pretty popular then). The first thread above shows most of the 14th century daggers I've seen in the books I've owned. Here's another dagger from a different thread:
For repros, there's A&A's rondel dagger. It's based on a late 14th century Italian painting or fresco.
Del Tin has a baselard as well.
Apart from those, much of the rest of the market tends to be later (15th century and on). Custom is an option. I went with Tod's Stuff of Oxford, England to reproduce one of the rondel daggers in the thread above.
Scabbards are another conundrum. We don't have many surviving 14th century daggers, and even fewer surviving sheaths/scabbards for them (I can't think of many/any I've seen). We can look at period art (like examples I posted in the first thread above), but effigies and brasses don't show construction and don't usually provide help with figuring out how they're suspended. They often seem magically stuck to the knights' right hips. Brasses of civilians show daggers suspended from belts via thongs.
So, thongs/cords can work. I believe some period art makes it look like the dagger and scabbard are thrust through the belt. Late in the 14th century (and more in the 15th), hooks are used for swords to hang them from hip belts; perhaps they were used for daggers too? The somewhat standard blocky belt loop we see sometimes (see below) doesn't seem to appear much in period art.
As far as scabbard construction, a wood core should be okay as would all leather. That's conjecture, as we don't really have enough surviving examples to judge off of, but those were the standards in the 15th century. I doubt the 14th was totally different.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Troy G L Williams
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| Posted: Thu 19 Jul, 2007 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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My thanks to all for your responses and assistance. Also, I appreciate the good wishes for my recovery. Who would have thought that walking to the gym would be hazardous to your health. 
I think I'm going to purchase a Rondel Dagger Kit from Tod's Stuff. That would be a lot of fun to work on. I'm not sure if it's something I can work on here in Iraq or not. On the other hand, I'm not sure if he can ship to Iraq either. I did see the Rondel Dagger on A & A's website. I like it very much as Tod's Stuff has some very nice ones as well. Now I have to decide. I guess attaching the dagger via a thong would seem to be the appropriate and easiest way for me. Any other thoughts and ideas are welcome.
v/r,
Troy Williams
"It’s merely a flesh wound." -Monty Python and the Holy Grail
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Sean Flynt
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| Posted: Fri 20 Jul, 2007 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| Troy G L Williams wrote: | My thanks to all for your responses and assistance. Also, I appreciate the good wishes for my recovery. Who would have thought that walking to the gym would be hazardous to your health.
I think I'm going to purchase a Rondel Dagger Kit from Tod's Stuff. That would be a lot of fun to work on. I'm not sure if it's something I can work on here in Iraq or not. On the other hand, I'm not sure if he can ship to Iraq either. I did see the Rondel Dagger on A & A's website. I like it very much as Tod's Stuff has some very nice ones as well. Now I have to decide. I guess attaching the dagger via a thong would seem to be the appropriate and easiest way for me. Any other thoughts and ideas are welcome. |
Good choice! It's always good to see folks take a "hands-on" approach to their collections. Shipping from UK might be more difficult than shipping from US, though. I assume the USPS routinely ships through mil channels. Royal Post might have more difficulty getting packages into that system. You could always have the piece shipped to a friend in the US, then forwarded to you from there.
As for construction in Iraq. It should be pretty straightforward. I assume the tang isn't threaded, so the main concern would be finding a vise and ball peen hammer to peen the tang. You're probably in better shape than most folks as far as that's concerned. Are there any vehicle repair units/machine shops in your vicinity?  Those guys will have everything you need and more.
-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Fri 20 Jul, 2007 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| Troy G L Williams wrote: | My thanks to all for your responses and assistance. Also, I appreciate the good wishes for my recovery. Who would have thought that walking to the gym would be hazardous to your health.
I think I'm going to purchase a Rondel Dagger Kit from Tod's Stuff. That would be a lot of fun to work on. I'm not sure if it's something I can work on here in Iraq or not. On the other hand, I'm not sure if he can ship to Iraq either. I did see the Rondel Dagger on A & A's website. I like it very much as Tod's Stuff has some very nice ones as well. Now I have to decide. I guess attaching the dagger via a thong would seem to be the appropriate and easiest way for me. Any other thoughts and ideas are welcome. |
Just adding my best wishes that you have a quick and full recovery.
You might also have a look at this rondel that is at a good price and the vendor has a very good reputation:
Link to rondel: http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~4019...Dagger.htm
Home page of the site: http://www.kultofathena.com/
Ryan Whittlinger is the owner and you can e-mail him if you have any questions about the any of his products and special shipping issues: He is a very cool guy and also a member here.
Oh, Chad had this rondel a while back and it seemed well made.
Here is a link to a TOPIC showing some pics of it and discussing it:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ght=rondel
Hope this helps. You could still get the home project one but this one is nice and not expensive. I'm tempted myself to add it to my next order at KoA.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Fri 20 Jul, 2007 8:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 20 Jul, 2007 8:08 am Post subject: |
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Jean,
That MRL rondel dagger is 15th century or later. While it's impossible to be certain what it's based off of, a very similar-looking surviving example I found is dated after 1400, making it not 14th century, which is what Troy was looking for.
It's not a bad piece, but I think it's later than Troy wants.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Fri 20 Jul, 2007 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: | Jean,
That MRL rondel dagger is 15th century or later. While it's impossible to be certain what it's based off of, a very similar-looking surviving example I found is dated after 1400, making it not 14th century, which is what Troy was looking for.
It's not a bad piece, but I think it's later than Troy wants.
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Oh, I forgot about the time period Troy was looking for and the period of this rondel. 
I'm still very tempted myself to get it soon and maybe the swiss balesard ?
The link to KoA might still be useful for Troy in the future I hope.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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David McElrea
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| Posted: Fri 20 Jul, 2007 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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In re: Tod's Stuff, take a look at his gallery!
http://www.todsstuff.co.uk/galpics/index.php
Now that is impressive. I wish I had seen more of his work while I still lived in the UK.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Fri 20 Jul, 2007 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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Tod does nice work, is a nice guy, and delivers pretty quickly. The rondel dagger (above) I just got from him took twice as long as he quoted, but delivery was still around 6 months after order.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Troy G L Williams
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| Posted: Fri 20 Jul, 2007 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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I'm a bit confused. I realize that the rondel has been used in the 15th century as well. So, how do I tell the difference? The MRL rondel that Jean displayed was very nice but what makes it 15th century? By the way, thanks Jean for the links even though the dagger was 15th century.
On another note. Plaque belts. Do or do not? They appear to be fashionable for the mid 14th century. Are these period examples in everyone's opinion?
http://www.anshelmarms.com/plaquebelt.html[url]
http://www.revivalclothing.com/index.asp?Page...D=116[url]
Again thank you all. I love this site.
v/r,
Troy Williams
"It’s merely a flesh wound." -Monty Python and the Holy Grail
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sat 21 Jul, 2007 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Troy G L Williams wrote: | | I'm a bit confused. I realize that the rondel has been used in the 15th century as well. So, how do I tell the difference? The MRL rondel that Jean displayed was very nice but what makes it 15th century? By the way, thanks Jean for the links even though the dagger was 15th century. |
What makes it 15th century? For starters, that's what the museum calls one very similar dagger. They say "after 1400." Other similar all-metal daggers date even later, often into the 16th century.
Plaque hip belts were common in the late 14th century and into the beginning of the 15th. Not all were entirely metal. Some were leather with metal plaques. Not every hip belt was also the sword belt. Sometimes separate belts were worn.
One of the threads I linked to above shows a number of effigies with a variety of belt styles.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Troy G L Williams
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| Posted: Sun 22 Jul, 2007 7:15 pm Post subject: Plaque Belts |
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The rondel dagger seems to be the way I'm going to go. I didn't see the effigy thread, Chad. Did I miss it?  Does anybody know of others that create some nice plaque belts?
Thank you all.
v/r,
Troy Williams
"It’s merely a flesh wound." -Monty Python and the Holy Grail
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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Troy G L Williams
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| Posted: Mon 23 Jul, 2007 4:30 am Post subject: |
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I forgot all about Raymond's Quiet Press Ltd. I even have them book marked and I ordered some buckles and tips for a viking belt I put together. I do like his work. I want to ensure that I exhaust all searches before I go with a certain plaque belt. I don't want to purchase something then see another one down the road that I like better. Then my girl friend would really kill me. The effigies are a big help when it comes to research. I worry sometimes that the artist may embelish on designs and so forth. Are there other examples from period art? Maybe something that is resting in a museum somewhere?
v/r,
Troy Williams
"It’s merely a flesh wound." -Monty Python and the Holy Grail
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Mon 23 Jul, 2007 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| Troy G L Williams wrote: | | I forgot all about Raymond's Quiet Press Ltd. I even have them book marked and I ordered some buckles and tips for a viking belt I put together. I do like his work. I want to ensure that I exhaust all searches before I go with a certain plaque belt. I don't want to purchase something then see another one down the road that I like better. Then my girl friend would really kill me. The effigies are a big help when it comes to research. I worry sometimes that the artist may embelish on designs and so forth. Are there other examples from period art? Maybe something that is resting in a museum somewhere? |
There are plenty of examples from period art. As for as embellishing on designs, that's always a possibility though a lot of archeology confirms what we see in art in so many cases (though not all).
For period art, our Feature articles show examples of period art, and a number of our articles touch on that era.
A period image of Edward III:
Battle scene:
Edward III and the Black Prince:
There are probably more that those, too. A google image search might help, too. Happy hunting!
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Troy G L Williams
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| Posted: Tue 24 Jul, 2007 9:01 am Post subject: |
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I notice that Prince Edward's plaque belt has square plaques on the last image Chad posted. This is not the same as the belt that Raymond's Quiet Press lists here http://www.quietpress.com/hip_belts.html[url] HB-6 The Black Princes' Hipbelt. Does anyone know of, or have an image of Prince Edward wearing such a belt? It is a wonderful belt to be certain.[/url]
v/r,
Troy Williams
"It’s merely a flesh wound." -Monty Python and the Holy Grail
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This is a standard topic