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Jean Thibodeau
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 Posted: Sat 07 Jul, 2007 5:05 am Post subject: Mercenary Taylor's Great Helm project |
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I just send an e-mail to Allan about making me a custom version of his Great Helm and I should be making it an official order after he gets back to me.
To save re-typing the whole thing here is a COPY/PASTE slightly edited. ( Removed side issues/personal stuff )
Oh, and Allan is also making me a slightly personalized version of his all steel Target Shield ( The personalized part will be his surprise for me.   )
E-MAIL:
I just got a new riveted maille Coif from Valentine ( Their closing sales ) and I tried it over my old Albion Cervelière and it work/fits over the Cervelière :^D
My old butted maille Coif was too small to fit over the Cervelière and the neck too small to use with YOUR 14th century Gorget.
BONUS: The coif fits over the Gorget so I can wear the Gorget with the Coif.
Now one problem I have is that ALL my Great Helms are too small to fit over my Cervelière as they should, limiting their usefulness to mostly just using with Coif alone. Oh, the Albion Early Great helm was supposed to fit over their Cervelière, but didn't, since I got both from a moat sale it didn't bother me too much.
Now to get to the real point of this ( wink Wink ) : I would like getting your Great Helm but oversized so that it will fit with Cervelière and the Coif together as they did in period. Measured over the Coif/Cervelière I get a circumference of 30" and a side to side/ fore to rear of about 9" ( hard to measure this as precisely as the circumference ) Getting the right circumference won't work if the side to side (oval) dimensions end up to narrow.
Also there should still be a suspension inside that can be very loose for use with the Coif/ Cervelière and still adjustable for use with coif alone.
I'm sure we can arrive at a slightly oversized than needed helm with a margin of error ( Would be really bad to not be able to use it because of a few thousands of an inch ....... LOL ).
What I would also customize:
1) Narrower occularum ( More like the period ones ).
2) Flaring of occularum maybe a little more prominent than what I see on your site.
3) To compensate for the reduced vision I would increase the size of the breath holes a little, but maybe double the number of them making them close together. ( Within reason so as to not weaken the protection too much )
4) Flat top or dome top ? Not sure ? Which do you recommend ?
5) Aesthetics being close to your standard model but influenced a bit by the Pembridge as far as the occularum is concerned. Although yours appeals to me in the side view as it looks like an earlier design.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Gordon Frye
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| Posted: Sat 07 Jul, 2007 7:48 am Post subject: |
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Jean;
Cool... about time you ordered another goodie from Allan! You really MUST keep up appearances, you know! And one of these days we'll get you out into the field with all of the nice kit you've been assembling. I'm glad to note that you're involved in a WMA school though, it's a GREAT start!
Cheers!
Gordon
"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Sat 07 Jul, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Gordon Frye wrote: | Jean;
Cool... about time you ordered another goodie from Allan! You really MUST keep up appearances, you know! And one of these days we'll get you out into the field with all of the nice kit you've been assembling. I'm glad to note that you're involved in a WMA school though, it's a GREAT start!
Cheers!
Gordon |
So much armour that you can use me for target practice jousting with lances at 240 pounds + ALL the armour I bought I should weight a nice 400 pounds, but I'm not too sure how I can wear 8 or 9 helms at the same time. 
Or I can do a few quick changes from 11 century to late 15 century kits depending on how I mix and match stuff: I can go from Norman Knight to transitional armour guy with both maille and plate to plate alone.
I avoid mixing and matching stuff too out of period with each other mostly because some stuff just looks goofy together like a 16th century Morion ( don't actually have that one yet ) and a 12 century kite shield.
I' m sure some of this would not appeal to strict living history guys ! But then it's MY fantasy life not theirs and my standards are low. 
Really looking forward to Allan's input and suggestions and it's good that although Allan is not set up for full custom work he will adapt his designs to the clients needs when possible. ( Mostly he has to stick to making his official line of product to be able to fill customer orders quickly and full custom work would take to much time away from the regular production ).
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Gordon Frye
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| Posted: Mon 09 Jul, 2007 8:10 am Post subject: |
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Jean;
Somehow I suspect that it would be difficult for you to maneuver much if you were wearing ALL of your armour at once (even if it was with only one helmet at a time!) But it's one heck of a way to show off all your cool stuff! 
Cheers!
Gordon
"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Gary A. Chelette
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| Posted: Mon 09 Jul, 2007 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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Jean,
I never liked a "flat top helm" to fight in. Too much of a landing pad if you know what I mean.
Round tops does better for glancing the blows and saving you a ringing!
I have a friend get hit hard with his flattop helm and I ran over to him and asked if he was ok. All he could say was, "Answer the *#@^%! phone!" Ring!
Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Mon 09 Jul, 2007 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Gary A. Chelette wrote: | Jean,
I never liked a "flat top helm" to fight in. Too much of a landing pad if you know what I mean.
Round tops does better for glancing the blows and saving you a ringing!
I have a friend get hit hard with his flattop helm and I ran over to him and asked if he was ok. All he could say was, "Answer the *#@^%! phone!" Ring! |
Since mine is mostly for collecting and display the flat top " headache factor " is less important for me but I do like the idea of my stuff being functional and from what you wrote the slightly domed version is a better choice and probably what I will opt for.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Mon 09 Jul, 2007 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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Here are my observations of using a greathelm. From my experience a flat top helmet is fine in combat with a few provisions. There are some things to avoid. Horsemen. Now that is a landing pad. The added height gives them the only position I can think of where the flat top becomes a danger. Two handed pole weapons can increase the chance of a solid blow to this as well. They have to be fairly vertical hits so you should be able to see it before it lands. Apart from that it is harder to hit than you'd expect, especially if you move when you fight. If you fight on horseback it becomes almost a non issue as you are far above the majority of blows on could land. The great helms with tapered top halfs are even better as they have a smaller flat top and guide the blows away from your skull.
RPM
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Jean-Carle Hudon
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| Posted: Wed 11 Jul, 2007 6:37 am Post subject: |
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The thing about the flat top, and the telephone rings that I have also experienced when stick fighting, is that the design is made to offer resistance to axe, sword or early polearm blows, and not the unpleasant, but far from lethal, effect of a well applied rattan shot.. The effect of having a reinforced corner on the top of one's head offers very good protection against anything which would attempt to cut through that portion of the fighter's anatomy, and this was further adressed by the cervelliere and padded coif, which is quite different from the foam adjustments we make for rattan fighting. Granted that the helm will evolve, but not because of the ringing effect. I would think the prime motivation would be related to cutting down the weight, which can be counter productive in a long drawn out engagement in warm climates. The progress made in the field of archery might also add an element to consider as a smaller target, with better aerodynamics ( the glancing blow factor) would offer better protection than the slow curve, with breathing holes, covering the face area.
Jean, you should come up to the medieval gatherings we hold every now and the. The one at Val-Du-Fort was great.
Regards,
JCH
Bon coeur et bon bras
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 11 Jul, 2007 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| Jean-Carle Hudon wrote: | The thing about the flat top, and the telephone rings that I have also experienced when stick fighting, is that the design is made to offer resistance to axe, sword or early polearm blows, and not the unpleasant, but far from lethal, effect of a well applied rattan shot.. The effect of having a reinforced corner on the top of one's head offers very good protection against anything which would attempt to cut through that portion of the fighter's anatomy, and this was further adressed by the cervelliere and padded coif, which is quite different from the foam adjustments we make for rattan fighting. Granted that the helm will evolve, but not because of the ringing effect. I would think the prime motivation would be related to cutting down the weight, which can be counter productive in a long drawn out engagement in warm climates. The progress made in the field of archery might also add an element to consider as a smaller target, with better aerodynamics ( the glancing blow factor) would offer better protection than the slow curve, with breathing holes, covering the face area.
Jean, you should come up to the medieval gatherings we hold every now and the. The one at Val-Du-Fort was great.
Regards,
JCH |
I'm basically looking to reproduce the Coif over Cervelière and Great Helm combination and rattan fighting rules applying to foam padding of a group, although fine for those groups, is not relevant to me. ( At least not unless I want to join in some recreated battles and the organization won't accept the protection given by the " real thing " and insist on foam.
The flat top, slightly domed top is mostly and aesthetic decision for me but I'm leaning toward the domed version.
With the flat top a sword or axe blow should hit or glance off the rim circumference of the top i.e. hit the edge of a circle and should tend to glance off if not at exactly 90° I think.
As mentioned before the flat top becomes a factor only if the attacker is in an elevated position from horseback and one is on foot. ( or similar situations like attacking a defended position from below ).
Well, a medieval gathering might be fun to go to some day but since I don't have a car or drive taking public transit in armour might be a problem except at Halloween. Not to mention that at a distant suburb public transport is not optimum at the best of times.
( Note to non Montrealers: Montreal is a bit like living in New York, one can depend on public transport if one lives near the subway and one normally travels and lives near or close to the city core. So, I never bothered with owning a car. )
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Bruno Giordan
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| Posted: Wed 11 Jul, 2007 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | Jean-Carle Hudon wrote: | The thing about the flat top, and the telephone rings that I have also experienced when stick fighting, is that the design is made to offer resistance to axe, sword or early polearm blows, and not the unpleasant, but far from lethal, effect of a well applied rattan shot.. The effect of having a reinforced corner on the top of one's head offers very good protection against anything which would attempt to cut through that portion of the fighter's anatomy, and this was further adressed by the cervelliere and padded coif, which is quite different from the foam adjustments we make for rattan fighting. Granted that the helm will evolve, but not because of the ringing effect. I would think the prime motivation would be related to cutting down the weight, which can be counter productive in a long drawn out engagement in warm climates. The progress made in the field of archery might also add an element to consider as a smaller target, with better aerodynamics ( the glancing blow factor) would offer better protection than the slow curve, with breathing holes, covering the face area.
Jean, you should come up to the medieval gatherings we hold every now and the. The one at Val-Du-Fort was great.
Regards,
JCH |
I'm basically looking to reproduce the Coif over Cervelière and Great Helm combination and rattan fighting rules applying to foam padding of a group, although fine for those groups, is not relevant to me. ( At least not unless I want to join in some recreated battles and the organization won't accept the protection given by the " real thing " and insist on foam.
The flat top, slightly domed top is mostly and aesthetic decision for me but I'm leaning toward the domed version.
With the flat top a sword or axe blow should hit or glance off the rim circumference of the top i.e. hit the edge of a circle and should tend to glance off if not at exactly 90° I think.
As mentioned before the flat top becomes a factor only if the attacker is in an elevated position from horseback and one is on foot. ( or similar situations like attacking a defended position from below ).
Well, a medieval gathering might be fun to go to some day but since I don't have a car or drive taking public transit in armour might be a problem except at Halloween. Not to mention that at a distant suburb public transport is not optimum at the best of times.
( Note to non Montrealers: Montreal is a bit like living in New York, one can depend on public transport if one lives near the subway and one normally travels and lives near or close to the city core. So, I never bothered with owning a car. ) |
They insist on foam.
Happy ignorance ... how is that real fighting men would accept leather or other natural padding?
If such paddings had been non effective no helm would have been made at all..
I have a real leather padding in my norman, it perfectly absorbed a mace blow: the helm was dented, my head perceived nothing.
Under the helm I had the usual padded coif (not very thick a padding for sure ...) and maille.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 12 Jul, 2007 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| Bruno Giordan wrote: | They insist on foam.
Happy ignorance ... how is that real fighting men would accept leather or other natural padding?
If such paddings had been non effective no helm would have been made at all..
I have a real leather padding in my norman, it perfectly absorbed a mace blow: the helm was dented, my head perceived nothing.
Under the helm I had the usual padded coif (not very thick a padding for sure ...) and maille. |
Well, It's easy to ignore rules of groups one doesn't belong to.
I guess if I was going to some event that insisted on foam I would have to get a dedicate to that activity kit.
I' m also guessing that the period stuff is more comfortable and less " heatstroke " inducing as some air can circulate between the helm and the leather suspension and the suspension would work more as a chock absorber as the leather stretches. I would think solid foam would actually transmit more energy to the head.
I would compare this to using a solid mass of some low heat transmitting material to insulate against heat compared to just using a vacuum or air between two panes of glass: Vacuum work best because the heat has nothing to transmit it's energy to ! The floating leather suspension could be compared to vacuum ?
So lets see: A light arming cap + the light padding in the cervelière + the steel shell of the cervelière + the leather suspension inside the great helm .......... less effective than a bunch of foam. Oh, I'm not mentioning the maille coif that would do little as far as shock absorption is concerned.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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