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Felix R.
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 Posted: Wed 04 Jul, 2007 11:54 am Post subject: Albions Liechtenauer as the trainer for... |
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Fiore and the lot of XVas? Has anyone the posiibility and is owning both the "trainer" and the "original" and can comment on the handling characteristics.
It is to say that I got the Fiore lately which handles impressingly easy and responsive, just natural and I am wondering if a training blunt can compare to such a great sword. It seems the Fiore is even easier to control than the Crecy (perhaps due to the longer hilt?).
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Craig Peters
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Jonathan Blair
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| Posted: Thu 05 Jul, 2007 3:54 am Post subject: |
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Thing is, the Liechtenauer also is suggested as a "suitable practice equivalent for the Next Generation Ringeck, Talhoffer, Fiore, Sempach, Landgraf, Regent, Earl." The same as for the Meyer. I'd guess it really comes down to personal preference between the Meyer and the Liechtenauer.
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - The Lord Jesus Christ, from The Gospel According to Saint Matthew, chapter x, verse 34, Authorized Version of 1611
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Thu 05 Jul, 2007 6:32 am Post subject: |
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Hmm, I had thought the two swords were recommended as training versions for different swords in the NG line. In fact, in Peter's post, he says it's close to the "Count, Steward, and the coming Hauptmann and Markgraf. Possibly also the Crecy." I wonder if Albion included the same list for both swords simply because they didn't want someone to reject one of their training swords just because the webpage didn't mention the training sword handling like a particular Next Gen that person owns.
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 05 Jul, 2007 7:23 am Post subject: |
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The Meyer is a good traning sword for lighter and more agile long swords. The Liechtenauer represents the more sturdy ones.
None of the training swords in the Maestro line are intended to *exactly* correspond to any individual sharp sword of the NG line. I think we need to change the wording of this text on the Albion pag to avoid confusion. It has fallen of my map of things to do, because of the more immediate work in preparing designs and waxes.
Both Liechtenauer and Meyer can be used to train Fiore techniques. You can use a lighter or heavier sword for these techniques. if you want a traning sword that comes close to the NG Fiore specifically, you should choose the Meyer, as that is the most quick and light-weight of the trainers currently available.
If you like swords like the NG Regent, you might be better served by the Liechtenauer.
As a swordsman you might be better off not focusing on a single sword in your training. As long as you use one that is well balanced and proper according to its type you should be able to use authentic techniques with either one. The goal with the Maestro line swords are to make available training swords that behave as much as possible as sharp swords.
With these charactersitics, you should be able to learn with either Maestro line Liechtenauer or Meyer equally well.
If you on the other hand really prefer light or extremely nimble swords, then the choice is simple: go for the Meyer.
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Thu 05 Jul, 2007 7:31 am Post subject: |
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To add to Peter's reply, there is not such thing as a sword designed for Liechtenauer but not Fiore. The arts are simply two ways of approaching the same weapon. An individual may have a certain preference for one sword over the other, but that's about it.
On a related note, the more I delve into the different traditions, the more I'm finding them to be the same. It's something I've always known, in a way, but having only given any major focus to the medieval Italian tradition recently it's become more and more obvious to me.
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-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise. -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Randall Pleasant
Location: Flower Mound, Texas Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Thu 05 Jul, 2007 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | | To add to Peter's reply, there is not such thing as a sword designed for Liechtenauer but not Fiore. The arts are simply two ways of approaching the same weapon. An individual may have a certain preference for one sword over the other, but that's about it. |
Well stated. For Liechtenauer and Fiore the only requirements is that the sword have a straight blade with two edges and a hilt that allows both hands. 
| Quote: | | On a related note, the more I delve into the different traditions, the more I'm finding them to be the same. It's something I've always known, in a way, but having only given any major focus to the medieval Italian tradition recently it's become more and more obvious to me. |
Amen! It has been a long held position in ARMA that there was only one European longsword art but many different ways of describing the art and many different preferences for select techniques of the art.
Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
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Felix R.
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| Posted: Thu 05 Jul, 2007 10:02 am Post subject: Not the fencing style but the sword... |
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Albions Fiore I had in mind when asking the question. I didnīt think that there was only one sword perfectly made for one single style. I was just comparing what I tried over the last months. There was my Deltin 5143, which is my actual trainer, then I tried the Crecy for just solo drills. Now I got Albions Fiore, which is a great difference in its handling to previously mentioned swords. I ordered the Liechtenauer in January and will get it, hopefully, as soon as Soren is back from vacation.
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 05 Jul, 2007 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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I will probably order the Liechtenauer eventually when/if I get advanced enough to use steel weapons instead of the wooden wasters.
The single hand Maestro for 1:33 or the Squire line single hander ( The people in my group use the Squire line one and it is holding up to a lot of use really well.  ). The Maestro may be a better choice for safety or longterm durability.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Felix R.
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| Posted: Tue 07 Aug, 2007 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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Got my Liechtenauer yesterday and I must admit it feels very close to the Fiore in terms of agility. And it is really a great improvement to the sluggish DelTin I trained with before.
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Colin F.
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| Posted: Tue 07 Aug, 2007 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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Well after my fiance and I got engaged 3 weeks ago, she told me she had bought an Albion sword as a present for me (awesome ) and I know it's one of the two, so it's just a matter of waiting now 
I'm just waiting for Soren to send which ever one it is to her!!! Although as it was ordered in April I guess I have a fair wait ahead of me! 
Melchett - "In short, a German spy is giving away every one of our battle plans."
Cpt. Darling - "You look surprised, Blackadder."
Edmund - "I cerainly am, sir. I didn't realise we had any battle plans."
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Felix R.
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| Posted: Thu 09 Aug, 2007 5:44 am Post subject: |
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Hello, I can say you wonīt be disappointed with any Albion sword.
Just for the waiting time, drop Soren a line, he is really quick in response and usually gives accurate timframes.
On thing to the Maestro line, the cord wrap is a kick in the teeth if used without gloves. Just 10 Minutes of form training resulted in sensitive irritation of my fingers.
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Scott Hanson
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| Posted: Thu 09 Aug, 2007 7:44 am Post subject: |
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Look at it this way: cord wraps are intended to help you "train" your swordsman's calluses as well as your technique.
I don't use gloves and after a few days of use it didn't bother me that much.
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Thu 09 Aug, 2007 8:00 am Post subject: |
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How do the Albion longsword trainers hold up to heavy use? I was very impressed with the look and feel of the new Hanwei blunt. To me it looked and felt just like a feathersword.
But it seemed kind of flimsy and I've already read reports that they fell apart and got badly damaged very quickly just doing light drill.
I'd like something which could be used in free-play and partner drill, obviously with control, but would hold up for a good while especially at that price. The Albion weapons are a lot of money for our group for a training sword. How well do they hold up compared to say, a good quality hardwood waster? I realise you wouldn't use them exactly the same way, the waster would be kind of 'abused' more, but I would think it should be in the ballpark in terms of durability, assuming you used it responsibly.
(I understand for many people posting here, money is not as much of an issue, you get what you pay for etc. But for a small HEMA group, you have a lot of expenses. Sparring helmets, fencing masks, hardwood wasters, sparring weapons, protective gloves, manuals, gorgets, gambesons, flex-steel dagger and rapier simulators, bucklers, targets, pells, sharps for test-cutting, training space... it really adds up. Also, I guess we are not as rich down here as in some other parts of the world. I know it's not a popular sentiment here but money is an issue for us.)
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Colin F.
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| Posted: Thu 09 Aug, 2007 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| Felix R. wrote: | Hello, I can say you wonīt be disappointed with any Albion sword.
Just for the waiting time, drop Soren a line, he is really quick in response and usually gives accurate timframes.
On thing to the Maestro line, the cord wrap is a kick in the teeth if used without gloves. Just 10 Minutes of form training resulted in sensitive irritation of my fingers. |
Over th summer I've been doing a lot of heavy work in landscaping and a bit of construction so my hands have got a lot tougher than they used to be. I'm think I should be ok with the chord wrap. If not, I'll change it for some leather 
Melchett - "In short, a German spy is giving away every one of our battle plans."
Cpt. Darling - "You look surprised, Blackadder."
Edmund - "I cerainly am, sir. I didn't realise we had any battle plans."
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Matt Anderson
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| Posted: Fri 10 Aug, 2007 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: |
On a related note, the more I delve into the different traditions, the more I'm finding them to be the same. It's something I've always known, in a way, but having only given any major focus to the medieval Italian tradition recently it's become more and more obvious to me. |
I agree. I think most of the differences people point out in different longsword sources are more from modern interpretation than actual differences in "style" or "system" that were actually used and are based on an extremely limited amount of reference material. I just don't think we know enough to rigidly classify them as different styles or even traditions. I think the universally applicable simliarities inherent in fencing with similar weapons far exceed the minor differences. When comparing Italian or German traditions, we're really talking about similar weapons used by people from the same time period and living in roughly the same part of the world who had contact with each other. To assume they developed radically different approaces to longsword fencing and maintained them because of differences in geographic locations or nationality, which didn't actually exist at the time, at least not as they do now, seems very unlikely to me. I'd bet that if Hans Talhoffer and Fiore Dei Liberi were transported to this time and we could watch them fence, we couldn't be sure who was who just by watching. 
And BTW, the Lichtenauer is a sweet training weapon!!!
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Fri 10 Aug, 2007 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| Matt Anderson wrote: | | Bill Grandy wrote: |
On a related note, the more I delve into the different traditions, the more I'm finding them to be the same. It's something I've always known, in a way, but having only given any major focus to the medieval Italian tradition recently it's become more and more obvious to me. |
I agree. I think most of the differences people point out in different longsword sources are more from modern interpretation than actual differences in "style" or "system" that were actually used and are based on an extremely limited amount of reference material. I just don't think we know enough to rigidly classify them as different styles or even traditions. I think the universally applicable simliarities inherent in fencing with similar weapons far exceed the minor differences. When comparing Italian or German traditions, we're really talking about similar weapons used by people from the same time period and living in roughly the same part of the world who had contact with each other. To assume they developed radically different approaces to longsword fencing and maintained them because of differences in geographic locations or nationality, which didn't actually exist at the time, at least not as they do now, seems very unlikely to me. I'd bet that if Hans Talhoffer and Fiore Dei Liberi were transported to this time and we could watch them fence, we couldn't be sure who was who just by watching.
And BTW, the Lichtenauer is a sweet training weapon!!! |
And if the differences in styles were or are real they would have to be useable to defend each against the other. 
If one was inherently superior we would have run out of Germans or Italians at some point ?
Styles may favour different solutions to similar problems and have to have at least one solution to every known technique otherwise having no solution to a common attack would make fighting closer to suicide.
I guess, there was always somebody coming out with something new or " secret " that was unbeatable until a counter was found: The incentive to keep some things secret to get this kind of advantage would have been great i.e. the only people seeing your " secret " technique would be your most trusted students or the unfortunate and surprised opponent who would not be in any shape to talk about it after if deceased.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Randall Pleasant
Location: Flower Mound, Texas Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Fri 10 Aug, 2007 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| Matt Anderson wrote: | | Bill Grandy wrote: |
On a related note, the more I delve into the different traditions, the more I'm finding them to be the same. It's something I've always known, in a way, but having only given any major focus to the medieval Italian tradition recently it's become more and more obvious to me. |
I agree. I think most of the differences people point out in different longsword sources are more from modern interpretation than actual differences in "style" or "system" that were actually used and are based on an extremely limited amount of reference material. I just don't think we know enough to rigidly classify them as different styles or even traditions. I think the universally applicable simliarities inherent in fencing with similar weapons far exceed the minor differences. When comparing Italian or German traditions, we're really talking about similar weapons used by people from the same time period and living in roughly the same part of the world who had contact with each other. To assume they developed radically different approaces to longsword fencing and maintained them because of differences in geographic locations or nationality, which didn't actually exist at the time, at least not as they do now, seems very unlikely to me. I'd bet that if Hans Talhoffer and Fiore Dei Liberi were transported to this time and we could watch them fence, we couldn't be sure who was who just by watching.
And BTW, the Lichtenauer is a sweet training weapon!!! |
Matt
Well stated, my friend. I always think in terms of European swordsmenship rather than German, Italian, English, etc. Geographic location is really a non-factor for the longsword and other weapons. After all, it was during the time period of the longsword that Europeans started exploring the world.
I fully agree about Albion's Lichtenauer. Several people in our study group have them and they are indeed sweet!
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Ciaran Daly
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| Posted: Fri 10 Aug, 2007 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | I will probably order the Liechtenauer eventually when/if I get advanced enough to use steel weapons instead of the wooden wasters. |
I've heard a couple of people say this now, or seen the sentiment repeated in forums, and I think I may be missing something. The wooden wasters I've handled were all balanced relatively poorly compared to training swords like these - why would one need to be more advanced simply to train with a more appropriately balanced weapon? Or is this a reference to learning control when working with a partner?
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Fri 10 Aug, 2007 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Ciaran Daly wrote: | | Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | I will probably order the Liechtenauer eventually when/if I get advanced enough to use steel weapons instead of the wooden wasters. |
I've heard a couple of people say this now, or seen the sentiment repeated in forums, and I think I may be missing something. The wooden wasters I've handled were all balanced relatively poorly compared to training swords like these - why would one need to be more advanced simply to train with a more appropriately balanced weapon? Or is this a reference to learning control when working with a partner? |
No deep and carefully thought out reasons for me personally, and a good question. 
My short answer is that the group I train with mostly uses wooden wasters and we do emphasize control as we use nothing but gloves for protection for classes and fencing masks and gambison for bouting.
Although, the more vigourous and aggressive bouting I've seen so far were among the more advanced students, or at least those who have taken lessons longer: These students will use steel blunts for longsword at times.
I should ask the instructor as I don't think there is a strict rule about this and I'm too new to this group to have figured out the why of it without asking.
On the other hand the 1:33 class used steel blunts and buckler most of the time although a new student was using a wooden waster but without the fencing masks. ( Well both people were using the wooden swords ) .
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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