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Kaveh Hemmat
Location: Chicago Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 2
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Posted: Fri 29 Jun, 2007 12:16 pm Post subject: How similar are jians and rapiers |
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If this question seems a bit far-out, it's because I'm constrained by the rules of a certain role playing game that need not be mentioned.
My question is, how similar is a jian to a rapier? I know they are different weapons, the jian apparently being stiffer (and thus more suited to attacking armored targets?) and the fighting style involving some draw cuts (which a rapier is not suited for?). But would the usage and fighting style of a jian be closer to that of a rapier (perhaps, an early or transitional rapier) than to, say, a broadsword or some type of longsword? Or is a jian so different from any of those swords, that comparisons are completely unhelpful?
Or, if the question is easier to answer framed this way, on a scale of 1 to 10, representing blade thickness and shape, where a 'true' rapier is a 1 and a broadsword is a 10, where would the jian fall?
I'm more concerned with the overall physical properties of the blade than with any particularities of technique that depend on the form of the hilt or the extent of the blade's sharp edges.
Thanks for indulging my attempt at coarse generalizations.
We shall thwart the Saracens, and their evil al-gebra!
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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Posted: Fri 29 Jun, 2007 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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I've seen some Jian that are nearly identicle to shorter rapiers, and then I've seen some that are completely different. There's a huge variety between each type of sword, as the terms themselves are very generic descriptors.
I've seen Scott Rodell demonstrate some jian techniques that are nearly identicle to some Italian rapier techniques, and then others that are completely different. The jian uses more cuts than the longer versions of rapiers, but the styles that utilize shorter rapiers seem to have a lot of similarities.
But then again, I can say the exact same thing about the differences between a rapier and a broadsword. Fencing is fencing, afterall. So to answer your question, it depends.
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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Posted: Fri 29 Jun, 2007 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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I think there are similarities between both that are not reflected by the physical objects but by the intended use of the weapons.
Tom Leoni has recently published an article about the definition of the rapier (and it was discussed in this thread on myArmoury). The definition he suggests is as follow:
Tom Leoni wrote: | My new definition of a rapier is that it is a single-handed, straight-bladed double-edged sword used predominantly in the 16th and 17th Centuries and optimized for the defense. In particular, the rapier may be the first single-handed sword specifically intended for use without a companion weapon between two unarmored opponents. |
which as I understand it is based more on the context and method of use than on the physical properties of the object.
Now, apart from the time-frame, the definition seems real close to that of a Jian. From what I know, in most Chinese arts the jian is used between unarmoured opponents, on its own without a companion weapon, and in a context of self-defence or dueling. Of course that's not to say that the jian was not used in a military context, but it's not the core of what remains in martial traditions. I could be wrong about that, though, because I only have a superficial exposure to Chinese martial arts...
So in a way the rapier and the jian would be similar because they are solutions to the same problem. It's just that with the rapier the focus is more on thrusts, fighting point forward, and with the jian the cuts are more used (especially with the tip, which makes distance equally critical with both weapons). And a rapier fighter and a jian fighter would maybe both face similar challenges when fighting "out of context".
I for one wouldn't mind too much seeing both in the same category in a role playing game. But then maybe I'm not representative of the audience
Regards
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Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Jean-Carle Hudon
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Posted: Fri 29 Jun, 2007 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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Kaveh,
what Bill mentionned about jian's can also be said of rapiers. In the anglo-saxon culture there is a tendency to assimilate rapiers to only the most slender bladed examples of that weapon, which in other traditions is inclusive of a much wider variety of blades, which anglophones seem to refer to as ''cut and thrust'' weapons, perhaps because of the influence of the works of Silver, an englishman who disliked rapiers to a certain extent. So, though I don't know which role playing game you are referring to, I would think that the authors of the game might be inluenced by some retrictive descriptions of what rapiers are all about. If you read Silver, he certainly seemed to think that they had quite severe limits, but I know that his opinion is far from receiving unanimous approval as many do not share his views as to the definition of what constitutes a rapier, many having heavier, stouter blades than those he considers...So good luck with your game and your touching on the neverending story of what is a rapier ( and why does poor Mr. Silver dislike them so...)
JCH
Bon coeur et bon bras
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Kaveh Hemmat
Location: Chicago Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 2
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Posted: Fri 29 Jun, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks a lot for those answers, the info is really helpful. It's always interesting to see how people in different historical contexts come up with similar (or not quite similar) solutions to solve similar problems.
EDIT: Oh, and... the game is D&D (or more precisely, Neverwinter Nights), I'm developing a "persistent world" in a Silk Road-based setting. There's not always a clear way to classify a lot of East Asian weapons, and I'm spending a fair amount of time looking into what happened when different martial traditions/technologies came into contact with each other. (Posts in this forum have been most helpful for that.)
We shall thwart the Saracens, and their evil al-gebra!
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Lafayette C Curtis
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Posted: Sat 30 Jun, 2007 12:15 am Post subject: |
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Hmm...if you're talking about D&D/NWN, I'd usually class most examples of the jian in the "longsword" category. Of course, if you've browsed this site for a little while, you'd already be aware that the D&D definition does not match the actual historical definition of "longsword"--the D&D longswords are what most serious hoplologists would call "arming swords" or "bastard swords" or just "swords."
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Jean Thibodeau
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Posted: Sat 30 Jun, 2007 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, am I the only one who has noticed some resemblance of the Jian with some versions of the Roman Spata ?
Just a random observation as I'm not assuming any crosscultural influences and just a form/function thing.
Also the handling might be very different depending on distal taper/ stiffness of blade etc ...
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Sat 30 Jun, 2007 9:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Lafayette C Curtis
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Posted: Sat 30 Jun, 2007 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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No, you're not. The visual resemblance between early jian and the spatha is pretty obvious, though I'm not quite sure about whether they actually resembled each other and dynamics and handling. But that's very likely to say the least.
And actually the illustration for "longsword" in NWN has more resemblances with a 19th-century jian than with a medieval European longsword!
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Kyro R. Lantsberger
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Posted: Mon 02 Jul, 2007 5:47 am Post subject: |
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Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Oh, am I the only one who has noticed some resemblance of the Jian with some versions of the Roman Spata ?
Just a random observation as I'm not assuming any crosscultural influences and just a form/function thing.
Also the handling might be very different depending on distal taper/ stiffness of blade etc ... |
Ive thought this myself, and am glad to see it repeated by somebody else. I have not checked deeply on this, though.
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William M
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Posted: Mon 02 Jul, 2007 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Oh, am I the only one who has noticed some resemblance of the Jian with some versions of the Roman Spata ?
Just a random observation as I'm not assuming any crosscultural influences and just a form/function thing.
Also the handling might be very different depending on distal taper/ stiffness of blade etc ... |
Hi Jean, I have just gone and compared a jian to a spatha and yes they are very similar, but only in the way of cross section.
The tips are different as the jian has a much more rounded tip, the taper is different too.
In regards to the jian in comparision to the rapier, there is nothing that I can see remotely similar between the two.
Will
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Jean Thibodeau
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Posted: Mon 02 Jul, 2007 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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William M wrote: | Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Oh, am I the only one who has noticed some resemblance of the Jian with some versions of the Roman Spata ?
Just a random observation as I'm not assuming any crosscultural influences and just a form/function thing.
Also the handling might be very different depending on distal taper/ stiffness of blade etc ... |
Hi Jean, I have just gone and compared a jian to a spatha and yes they are very similar, but only in the way of cross section.
The tips are different as the jian has a much more rounded tip, the taper is different too.
In regards to the jian in comparision to the rapier, there is nothing that I can see remotely similar between the two.
Will |
Maybe some of the swordsmanship / techniques have similarities but then I would think that the Chinese would have also made their swords with complex guards.
The jians have fairly stiff blades and are fairly narrow so some people may see some similarities with rapiers.
As far as the spatha is concerned the spatha may have thinner more cut capable blades. The point style might vary widely from spatha to spatha and from jian to jian ? I just don't know enough about them to generalize much.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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George Hill
Location: Atlanta Ga Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 614
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Posted: Mon 02 Jul, 2007 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
Maybe some of the swordsmanship / techniques have similarities but then I would think that the Chinese would have also made their swords with complex guards.
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Complex guards in Asia seem rather rare. The only ones I've see were on Wing Chun butterfly swords, (Which are like D-gaurd bowies.) And perhaps the extremely rare even in China "double hook swords."
Could just this be a "didn't think of it" thing? Or are there large numbers of complex guard Chinese swords I've never seen?
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Jean Thibodeau
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Posted: Mon 02 Jul, 2007 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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George Hill wrote: | Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
Maybe some of the swordsmanship / techniques have similarities but then I would think that the Chinese would have also made their swords with complex guards.
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Complex guards in Asia seem rather rare. The only ones I've see were on Wing Chun butterfly swords, (Which are like D-gaurd bowies.) And perhaps the extremely rare even in China "double hook swords."
Could just this be a "didn't think of it" thing? Or are there large numbers of complex guard Chinese swords I've never seen? |
I would go for the " didn't think of it " thing and the conservative tradition thing as well as not depending on the guard to protect the hand I guess ? Clean lines also.
This one from the Kult of Athena site: Qi jian http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~SH22...i+Jian.htm looks tempting eventually, although I haven't really considered Chinese weapons before having only seen up close the really cheap Chines tourist shop kind one sees in most China towns.
Any opinions experience with that one ? Keep it concise as we should get back to the original question about what the jians might have in common with rapiers and how they differ in use as they do obviously differ in looks.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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George Hill
Location: Atlanta Ga Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 614
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Posted: Mon 02 Jul, 2007 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
This one from the Kult of Athena site: Qi jian http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~SH22...i+Jian.htm looks tempting eventually, although I haven't really considered Chinese weapons before having only seen up close the really cheap Chines tourist shop kind one sees in most China towns.
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I believe I saw that one at the Altanta blade show in 2006. I liked it very much, but I know so little about the type of sword... and it was more then a year ago, but I would guess that it's a good deal. But I wouldn't care to be called to task if I'm wrong.
To abandon your shield is the basest of crimes. - --Tacitus on Germania
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Kyro R. Lantsberger
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Posted: Mon 02 Jul, 2007 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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There was a thread much like this on Scott Rodell's forum. Im too lazy and tired tonight to go over and search, but I think that it was mentioned somewhere on there that the shape and angles of Chinese armor around the hand/wrist area filled much of the need for hand protection thereby reducing the need for more complex hilt designs.
I think it also pays to remember that the basic Jian design goes back into the hundreds BC, and that there are subtypes with many variations. This makes comparisons different. Im sure with all of the varieties out there we could find some that might more closely resemble Viking blades, while others resemble Spatha, or transition rapier/cut thrusts.
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Lafayette C Curtis
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Posted: Mon 02 Jul, 2007 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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Kyro R. Lantsberger wrote: | I think it also pays to remember that the basic Jian design goes back into the hundreds BC, and that there are subtypes with many variations. This makes comparisons different. Im sure with all of the varieties out there we could find some that might more closely resemble Viking blades, while others resemble Spatha, or transition rapier/cut thrusts. |
So true. Some of the very early jian seem to have fullers that remind me a lot of Type XII or even Type XIX European swords.
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