[M. Eversberg II]

I have read that an armoured surcoat was one of the first returns to plate armour in Middle Ages Europe. I was wondering if it was exclusive to the 13th century, or if it continued to see use later on? Additionally, is there any one nation that made use of it more than others?

M.

[Dan Howard]

The coat of plates evolved from the armoured surcoat. That is why the armoured surcoat is not seen in later times.

[Richard Fay]

Hello all!

Dan is basically right, but let's not forget that fashion played a role, too. As surcoats fell out of fashion in the early 14th century, so would armoured surcoats. And the coat-of-plates was certainly a more developed form of the plated surcoat . The armoured or plated surcoat seems to be a late 13th-early 14th century fashion. It's seen on some period art from Germany, and possibly Scandinavia. I can find some examples to cite later.

I hope this helped!

More later!

[Richard Fay]

Hello again!

Okay, I've found some examples of armoured surcoats seen in period art. This could give you a better idea of the time and place of use. Many are actually early 14th century, and seem to be seen most often in Central and Northern Europe. I'm also going to include versions of the coat-of-plates with the split flaps in front and back (like the famous example on the statue of St. Maurice made in Brandenburg), because these are sort of a compromise between a coat-of-plates and an armoured surcoat (which, by the way, is also sometimes called a coat-of-plates as well - it can be confusing). I think the "armoured surcoat" can be seen as merging into the coat-of-plates. A coat-of-plates with full, long skirts can perhaps even be seen as an "armoured surcoat".

-A wall painting in the wooden church at Sodra Rada in Sweden, late 13th - early 14th century, shows a figure with a flat-topped great helm wearing a coat-of-plates (some rivets are visible) similar to that seen on the statue of St. Maurice in Brandenburg. The coat-of-plates has a pair of flaps in the front (and possibly in the back as well), split down the middle, like the skirts of a surcoat. (in Medieval Scandinavian Armies (1) 1100-1300 by David Lindholm & David Nicolle)

-a painted wooden panel of a reliquary in the monastery at Logum, Denmark, from circa 1300. A depiction of St. Maurice shows the saint in an armoured surcoat with full skirts. The rivets and even vertical edges of the plates are clearly depicted on the saint's chest. (ibid)

-an incised effigy of the Swedish knight Nils Jonsson in the church of St. Maria in Sigtuna, from 1316 to 1319, shows the knight in old-fashioned equipment as compared to contemporary German or Danish examples. The knight wears an armoured surcoat with full skirts, past the knee in this case. Their are rivets and vertical lines (possibly reinforced with embroidery or applied fabric) visible on the torso. (in Medieval Scandinavian Armies (2) 1300-1500 by David Lindholm & David Nicolle)

-an early 14th century wall painting originally in the church at Orum in Denmark showed what may be interpreted as an armoured surcoat on at least one of the figures of the soldiers in the depiction of the "Massacre of the Innocents". One wears a surcoat that has possible rivets and horizontal lines suggesting armoured "hoops". It may also be a crude representation of a coat-of-plates. (ibid)

-another pair of figures that are open to a bit of interpretation are those from a late 14th century wall painting in the church in Bjorsater, Sweden. They wear what appears to be "splinted" coats-of-plates (trapezoidal plates rivetted to a fabric base or cover). They also show long skirts going past their knees. The skirts may be an integral part of the coats-of-plates, so these could be called "armoured surcoats". However, the plated garments could also be separate, worn over surcoats or long tunics. This could be a late survival of an "old fashioned" style of "armoured surcoat".(ibid)

-perhaps the most well-known example of an "armoured surcoat" is that on a carved and painted figure of a sleeping guard at the Holy Sepulchre, made in Saxony between 1250 and 1300. The guard's surcoat shows rivets and lines, indicating that it was lines with plates. Otherwise, it's a fairly standard surcoat of the time, with long skirts. (in German Medieval Armies 1000-1300 by Christopher Gravett)

-the statue of St. Maurice made in Brandenburg between 1250 and 1300 that shows the saint in one of the earliest representations of a coat-of-plates. The chest shows rivets and even the edges of some of the plates. The coat-of-plates is fastened at the rear with three straps and buckles. The coat-of-plates also has split "flaps' front and back, making it appear similar to a surcoat. It appears almost like a cross between the separate, skirtless coat-of-plates and an "armoured surcoat". (ibid)

-the seal of the German city of Bamberg shows St. Maurice in what may be a coat-of-plates, since there is a line of rivets around his upper chest. If so, it might be interpreted as an "armoured surcoat", since the skirts on the garment are long, like a surcoat. (in Lake Peipus 1242: Battle of the Ice by David Nicolle)

-an English knightly effigy of circa 1340 in Hanbury church is in rather old-fashioned armour. He possibly wears a coat-of-plates under his surcoat or a part of his surcoat, as indicated by horizontal lines and a "rigid" look to the torso. If the plates are a part of his long surcoat, it could be interpreted as an "armoured surcoat" - and a rather late example. (in Crecy 1346: Triumph of the Longbow by David Nicolle)

-one figure from the carving of the sleeping guards at the Holy Sepulchre on the main porch of Strasbourg Cathedral, circa 1320-1330, has a coat-of-plates with long skirts like a plain surcoat. Here the hem appears to be just above the knee. There are rather large-headed rivets on the chest, and some sort of straps or other type of attachment at the shoulder. (in Arms and Armour from the 9th to the 17th Century by Paul Martin)

-figures from the sculpture of the sleeping guards at the Holy Sepulchre in Constance Cathedral, circa 1300, wear coats-of-plates similar to that seen on the Brandenburg St. Maurice. The garments attach in the back, apparently have plates around the torso, and have "flaps" hanging down front-and-back, sort of like in "imitation" of a plain fabric surcoat (meaning one without plates). (ibid)

I was actually surprised how late some of these "armoured surcoats' or coats-of-plates with full skirts like a surcoat could be. I would say, based on what I found, that they might have been most popular first in German-speaking lands, then later in Scandinavia. Remember, too, some of the "fringes" of Europe would have used "old fashioned" armour as compared to other areas. And sometimes, an older warrior would wear an older form of armour.

I hope this was of interest!

Stay safe in the New Year!

[Richard Fay]

Hello again!

I've dug through my books some more, and found one more example of an armoured surcoat or skirted coats-of-plates. I've also found a couple of surcoats that have been interpreted as containing internal plates or otherwise being "armoured". (all in David Nicolle's Arms & Armour of the Crusading Era 1050-1350 Western Europe and the Crusader States)

Figures in the Italian wall painting of "St. Martin Renouncing the Sword" in the Montefiore Chapel of the Lower Church of St. Francis, Assisi, circa 1317, wear long-hemmed coats-of-plates. The rivets, in patterns of squares, are clearly visible. All the hems are long, like typical surcoats; the hem on one figure almost comes down to his ankle! These could certainly be called "armoured surcoats".

A couple figures, one Italian and one Spanish, have decorated surcoats that might contain internal plates. One is the effigy of Don Alvaro de Cabrera the Younger from the Church of Santa Maria de Bellpuig de las Avellanas, Lerida, Catalonia, now in the Cloisters Museum, New York.. This mid-14th century effigy shows the knight wearing a long sleeved surcoat peppered with floral studs or rivets. It has been interpreted as a reinforced surcoat with plates beneath the fabric.

The other figure that has a decorated surcoat that might represent a reinforced surcoat is that of a mounted knight depicted on the carved relief on the tomb of Guilelmus Beraldus in the Convent of the Annunziata, Florence, circa 1290. The knight wears a garment with long skirts that is peppered with fleur-de-lis on the torso. David Nicolle suggests that these may surround the rivets of a coat-of-plates. The skirt may be part of the garment, in which case it could be seen as a reinforced surcoat.

Keep in mind that there might be other interpretations of the Don Alvaro effigy and the carving on the tomb of Guilelmus Beraldus. I think that the carved relief in Tuscany might just as easily depict a hardened leather curie decorated with fleur-de-lis, worn over the surcoat. That's the fun thing about interpreting period art; ten people can give you ten different interpretations! However, some period art clearly shows long-skirted garments with patterns of rivets being used well into the 14th century. Keep in mind that "armoured" or "reinforced" surcoats would have grown less common as the 14th century progressed, and more advanced coats-of-plates came into general use. Still, the line between can be blurred.

I hope this helped!

Stay safe!

[M. Eversberg II]

Well Richard your posts where very informitive! Based on this information I think I'm moving my kit collection into a 14th century one. I believe an armoured surcoat would be very simple to construct with the tools/metal I have on hand. I am guessing a surcoat comes somewhere between the knees and ankles, or generally above the knee? I've seen several variations in photographs, but don't take those too serriously. Additionally, how are suroats sewn together? Are they open along the sides and tied in the armoured variety, similar to regular (though modernized) surcoats I've seen?

M.

[Randall Moffett]

The St. Maurice statue from the second half of the 13th is one of the best sources for this early type of armour. I think this is listed under a search here on the myArmoury search.

RPM

[Richard Fay]

Hello all!

[Richard Fay]

Hello again!

Here's a link to the entry on Wikipedia about St. Maurice that has a decent photo of the statue of the Saint in an early coat of plates (I mentioned it in my earlier post, but a picture's worth a thousand words):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Saint_Maurice_Magdeburg.jpg

If you go to this link, note the "flaps' in front to give the coat-of-plates the appearance of a surcoat. There is also a painting of Saint Maurice (also mentioned earlier) that shows the martial saint in a more typical surcoat reinforced with rectangular plates.

Stay safe!

[Dan Howard]

St Maurice IMO is an example of the transitional stage between an armoured surcoat to the coat of plates.

[Richard Fay]

Hello all!

[Richard Fay]

Hello again!

Here's a link to a pattern for an armoured/reinforced surcoat. I don't know how historically accurate it is (some didn't have plates in the back), but it can give a general idea of form:

http://www.armourarchive.org/essays/armoured_surcoat/

And the same thing, but one with a small picture of the sleeping guard sculpture wearing a reinforced surcoat:

http://www.tirbriste.org/dmir/ArmsArmor/02/0222/0222.html

And here's a link to an interesting essay about armour development (apparently, something put out by the Higgin's Armoury):

http://users.wpi.edu/~dev_alac/iqp/indepth/historyofarmor.html

Here's the section from the web page about reinforced surcoats, basically summarizing what I've already said:

[Elling Polden]

I figured I'd resurect this thread to show of my project for the weekend;






For the occasion with improvised and slightly ragtag lacing.

[Steven H]

Elling-

Thanks for sharing. Is it all one piece? Do you have a pattern you could share?

Thanks again.

[Jessen Klaus]

Elling Polden

That's a niece piece you have made, can you share some more photos ?
I'm thinking about making on for my own kit

Chers / Hilsen
Klaus jessen

[Elling Polden]

Thanks.

The CoP and surcote is in one piece; the wool is a recycled long wool tunic of a Early and Primitive design. In additon there are three layers of thick canvas.

Basically, it is a standard surcote (but with very high side gores, since the original tunic was ankle length) with the gores attached to the backpiece, and the CoP flaps to the front.
I can make a drawing later...


The inside.


The inside of the back. Note the side gores. They could be smaller, and ended lower, but I haven't bothered modifying them (yet). the back piece gore is sown all the way up, but the front piece gore is stitched to where it meets the flaps. It is held up b y the rear gore.
The purpse of this is to have the "skirt begin under the flaps, to make the whole thing look better, and enable you to turn it inside out.

[Elling Polden]

Right-o. Here's a quick n' dirty pattern

A is the width of between your joints + a couple of cm.
B is half the circumference of your chest. (in my case , A is a about 35 cm, B about 50 cm)
C is the difference between A and B.
D is the distance from your the top of your shoulder to your hip.
X is the desired length of the surcote.

Start out cutting out the front and back pieces. Then attach the side flaps to the front piece, and rivet the plates in place. You do now have a "St Maurice / Apron style coat of plates/armoured surcote.
Now, make side gores as shown. They should be slightly longer than X, so that the top is under the plaps when its worn, and wide enough for you (and your armour) to pull it over the head.
In the back, sew them as normal. In the front, sew them up until you meet the flaps.
When you close the Coat of Plates, the result is as you can see in the pictures.
Make sure the plates are high enough to dive you freedom of movement. If done popperly, you shoudl have no weight on your hips at all.

Hope that makes a bit sense....

[Reinier van Noort]

That looks great. A coat of plates is high on my to-do list too (but not as high as is spending time finishing my PhD research )

What thickness steel did you use? I assume it is normal mild steel?

[Gary A. Chelette]

I have worn an armoured gambeson for 22 years. It's not unlike the surcoat, it just has more padding. Mine came just above the knee cop. It has plate strips in the skirt part as well for the extra leg protection. If you wish, I can put a picture up later.

[Elling Polden]

The steel is regular mild steel sheets, from a utility store; two 30x25 cm plates, divided into eight 10x25cm pieces with a hacksaw and metal blades
I can make no claim at being an armourer, so my main priority was to find out if it would work, and make it look as I could granted the fact that I was going to do it myself.
It's no repro, but It looks good, fits a lot better than my last attempt at making a CoP, and the concept seems to work like a charm.

I can, however, see the reasons for dropping the side gores, like on the St Maurice CoP.
The full armoured surcote must be pulled over the head before it can be fastened, which could be bothersome. I'v seen pictures of both kinds, so it was probably a matter of personal taste.

A 1250's norwegian description of a knight's armour states that the Plate should be worn on top of the arming coat, under the mail. In the same period we have sources on armoured surcotes; most likely the coexisted.
From what I can gather the plate was seen as an "extra" in the 13th century. After all, it offers no limb defense, and must thus be combined with other armour. And if you have a cloth armour and want to uppgrade, you will get the mail first; the CoP is almost as expensive, and covers less of your body.
So, once you have everyting else, a plate would be a good way to top it of.

Unfortunately, only the armoured surcotes are clearly visible, the other options beeing covered by surcote and possibly even mail....