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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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 Posted: Fri 01 Jun, 2007 11:55 am Post subject: |
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Jason,
I agree with your remarks regarding Fiore v. "the Germans".
It is an excellent exercise to study, for instance, the first few plays of the Zornhau and contrast them with Fiore's first few plays of Zhogo Largo. The same situations are explored. The key differences lie in the varying preferences for footwork. Fiore likes to use stable turns on the feet, accompanied by changes in weighting, while Liechtenauer prefers to pass. It is for this reason that we don't see the winding used in Fiore's plays here: he simply leads with the other foot, making such an option impractical; so, instead, he grabs the point, a very safe option at the measure he's playing in.
Good post!
All the best,
Christian
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Fri 01 Jun, 2007 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: |
That's a false time. And even so, he is moving his body before his feet. Again, I'm not saying I'm perfect, but that doesn't change the fact that it's there. |
Good call. For some reason, I was only thinking that the feet, legs or body moving before the sword was false time, but now that you mention it, anything other than the sword moving first is false time.
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Jason G. Smith
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| Posted: Sat 02 Jun, 2007 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The actions described in your statements sound more like an absetzen type of action rather than as cut. It appears that in a Zorn-to-Zorn counter you don't see your Zornhau as a counter cut that displaces the on-coming cut. Rather it appears that in one fluid motion you pull you hilt down so that your sword in just in the way of the on-coming blade and then you thrust. Is my understanding of your interpretation correct? If this is correct, can you provide more detail as to why you don't see this master cut as an actual cut? |
Randall - it would seem to me that we're kind of going in circles here. Everyone seems to be doing the same basic thing whilst describing it differently!  It seems to me that if you cut from a Zornhau from Vom Tag to pflug, then you are indeed performing an absetzen. Should the distance be larger, however, and you cut to Langort, you either hit him in the head/shoulders, or if you're short, you get your point in his face. The manuscripts say to strike with the point, not necessarily to thrust, so if you hit cut with the tip of the sword, I believe you're faithful to the masters' words. 
Christian -
Thank you - high praise indeed from someone whom I hold in high esteem. Fiore does indeed use stable turns to counter, which is something I've become accustomed to doing rather than always stepping out to the right when I countercut (which was my normal reaction before I began studying the Italian school to fill gaps in my knowledge). The basic tenet is simple - if your opponent can hit you, he's within distance and so, therefore, are you. You can then take advantage of timing - in this case the time of the hand, as it is faster than the time of the hand and foot your opponent is using to reach you - in order to counter. The beauty of it is if you cut short, you simply step in with a passing step after and chase him with your point. Even if he retreats, your reach is very long, and he'll be hard pressed to get out of the way of the thrust. If you do this using a Kron rather than a Zornhau, any number of possibilities are open to you - counter cut to the head with a step, duplieren behind the blade if your opponent's pressure is sideways, winden to the upper or lower opening (I prefer the lower opening - it's harder to defend), a Zwerchau to the head, or a zwerch to the other side should that fail. And you remain in the vor the entire time. No wasted movement nor energy. Of course, passing out to the right is also the best way to try and get to the outside - as well as counter with avoidance - but I encourage people to try it from a guard without moving - it works astonishingly well.
Les Maîtres d'Armes
Member of the
Chivalric Fighting Arts Association
... above all, you should feel in your conscience that your quarrel is good and just. - Le Jeu de la Hache
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Sat 02 Jun, 2007 10:12 am Post subject: |
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Hi Jason,
Good observations on the stable turn.
But, the passing step done with the Zornhau is not there to close measure, but to set up positioning for the options to come should the Zornhau-Ort not hit. This will happen if your opponent realizes his jeopardy and switches gears to counter your counter. That said, it is the movement of the sword (which happens first) and the forward movement of weight that accomplishes the defense. This is why, I believe, we see the language used in Ringeck wherein he stresses that the right foot "follows the stroke".
Based on a combination of seeing Thomas Stoeppler's experimentation with this, plus the plate in Kal, has radically changed the kinesthetics of how I now do this. I really should put some video together soon.
All the best,
Christian
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Jason G. Smith
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| Posted: Sat 02 Jun, 2007 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Hi Jason,
Good observations on the stable turn.
But, the passing step done with the Zornhau is not there to close measure, but to set up positioning for the options to come should the Zornhau-Ort not hit. This will happen if your opponent realizes his jeopardy and switches gears to counter your counter. That said, it is the movement of the sword (which happens first) and the forward movement of weight that accomplishes the defense. This is why, I believe, we see the language used in Ringeck wherein he stresses that the right foot "follows the stroke". |
I'm sorry if I gave that impression - such was not my intent. It's fairly obvious to me that the step is used to gain better positioning - were it used for measure, you most definitely would be much too close, as your opponent is closing, and so would you be - all but negating the effects of the longsword, and bringing you into range for Ringen or Giocco Stretto. While this is perhaps what you want in any given situation, I think there are better ways of getting to this position than with a Zornhau...
That the right foot follows the stroke is also good timing - hands should initiate movement, followed by the rest of the body. Difficult to get into the habit of doing correctly and consistently, but that's why we practice.
| Quote: | | Based on a combination of seeing Thomas Stoeppler's experimentation with this, plus the plate in Kal, has radically changed the kinesthetics of how I now do this. I really should put some video together soon. |
Yes, you should!
Cheers!
Jason Smith
Les Maîtres d'Armes
Member of the
Chivalric Fighting Arts Association
... above all, you should feel in your conscience that your quarrel is good and just. - Le Jeu de la Hache
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Hugh Knight
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| Posted: Sat 02 Jun, 2007 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Christian Henry Tobler wrote: | But, the passing step done with the Zornhau is not there to close measure, but to set up positioning for the options to come should the Zornhau-Ort not hit. This will happen if your opponent realizes his jeopardy and switches gears to counter your counter. That said, it is the movement of the sword (which happens first) and the forward movement of weight that accomplishes the defense. This is why, I believe, we see the language used in Ringeck wherein he stresses that the right foot "follows the stroke".
Based on a combination of seeing Thomas Stoeppler's experimentation with this, plus the plate in Kal, has radically changed the kinesthetics of how I now do this. I really should put some video together soon. |
Christian,
As I think you know, my interpretation of this play is an almost perfect match for yours--or was almost perfect, I should say, since you have apparently changed it. Can you elaborate on these changes? I've looked at the Kal plate pretty intensely and all I see is a slight backward weight shift (which, until you wrote this, I took to be more artistic sloppiness than anything else); not to sound stupid, but to me that doesn't appear to represent a radical change in the way the play is done. What am I missing?
Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Mon 04 Jun, 2007 10:11 am Post subject: |
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Hi Hugh,
Ok, this is the short version of what I'm doing now...on a gross level, no, it isn't that different. But, as they say, God is in the details:
1. Back weight vom Tag a tad, with the sword resting on your right shoulder. The elbows should low and at rest, the entire body having a relaxed quality.
2. Turn the left foot outward a little bit; even as little as 5 degrees can make a difference. Make sure you feel your hip joints open up from doing this. What this accomplishes is removing the need to 'step around' the left foot. Instead your right foot will now follow the blow effortlessly, almost as if you are falling after it.
3. As you strike, and thereby step, keep your back leaning back slightly and project the point as the swords clash forward. Put the point into a spot on the mask/helmet corresponding to his right eye.
4. If you need to wind at the sword, shift your weight forward as you do this.
There's probably a million subtleties I could convey in person but that I'm either not calling to mind here, or which wouldn't translate as well to the written word. While the above may not sound that different, if you saw me do it, you'd get the idea right off.
All the best,
Christian
Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar
Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship
Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Jörg B.
Location: near Bonn, Germany Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Tue 05 Jun, 2007 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | If anyone gets a chance to practice with Jorg Bellinghausen or Thomas Stoeppler of Ochs, I would highly recommend it. They have some excellent training methods to erase these problems and make the first play of the zornhau work far more effectively than this, and to do it exactly as the text says to do it.
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Thanks for the plug, Bill!
As you and Christian said, the devil is in the details, mostly mechanical details, but if one does the strike correctly, it's almost impossible not to arrive in a position like the one in Kal's book.
Cheers,
Jörg
Jörg
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