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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Sun 03 Jun, 2007 1:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jason G. Smith wrote:


Ah, but that's where I think you may be mistaken, and why it's important to study more than one "system". Everything is inferred - should you get into Ringen or ringen am schwert with your opponent - what do you do? Simple - if he changes through with a pommel, it is essentially a dagger disarm. If he comes at y ou with half sword, that too is a dagger, and many of the same techniques and principles apply.

Sorry - wife and kids are harrying me... gotta go!


Jason,

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. Are you asserting that disarms are more important in the German system than I have suggested, with your two examples listed as evidence? Or are you arguing that disarms are typically done without making use of your own sword in the process?

By the way, the general philosophy of the ARMA is that a wholistic approach to historic European martial arts is better, and we make use of Italian, German, Spanish, English and French manuals. I personally prefer to stick to the German masters, simply because I view their system as being more complete than the Italians, but that's a personal preference more than anything else.
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Jason G. Smith




Location: Quebec
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
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Posts: 130

PostPosted: Sun 03 Jun, 2007 2:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. Are you asserting that disarms are more important in the German system than I have suggested, with your two examples listed as evidence? Or are you arguing that disarms are typically done without making use of your own sword in the process?


What I'm saying is that German or Italian, it matters not a whit. You can easily disarm someone with an arm wrap, or by grabbing their handle in the middle, or by wrenching the pommel, or by... You can use the sword, and usually you will in order to get into position (and bind the opponent), but disarming with the sword is no easy matter.

What I'm also saying is that, for instance, in Dobringer - very little mention is made of any dolchfechten or ringen. It's incomplete. You need a whole slew of masters in order to make any sense of it - Ringeck's Commentaries, Danzig, Meyer, Talhoffer, etc. If you look at Fiore's system, while not any better or any worse, it is a complete system, and everything that comes before in the manuscript can be used later. You can do an upper key in wrestling, dagger and yes, even longsword. In the sword in one hand plates, he uses a one-hand finestra guard to defend - you never see that in the sword in two hand plates, but everything that is shown elsewhere can be applied. The German masters spelled it out for you - use Ochs to defend an Oberhau. Fiore didn't necessarily do that, but if you look at it just a bit, you see it's there. Even if it doesn't explicitly state the technique, the principle is what matters. Too many people get caught up in techniques, whilst ignoring the principles that apply across the board. While I'm not implying that's what you do, it's an all too common occurence.

Quote:
By the way, the general philosophy of the ARMA is that a wholistic approach to historic European martial arts is better, and we make use of Italian, German, Spanish, English and French manuals. I personally prefer to stick to the German masters, simply because I view their system as being more complete than the Italians, but that's a personal preference more than anything else.


And that's a good thing - studying too many masters at one time can spread you thin. Concentrate. I used to study the German school exclusively, now I study Fiore. I try to make a point of being faithful to one master, but common sense and scholarly diligence force me to look elsewhere for answers that aren't in the manuscripts, especially when there are contemporary masters I can look to, be they German or not. Not to use someone's material with the same weapon in the same time period would be, to me, irresponsible. Using a master from two hundred years later, even in the same tradition, is almost silly, as the context of the weapon has changed dramatically over the space of two hundred years.

Now, all that being said, I do agree that the mainstay of the German school is get in quick, take the initiative, and keep at him until you hit. I, on the other hand, prefer to sometimes do away with the sword when things get sticky (or too close!) and rather than back up to remain in sword distance, I'm going in for the kill with a lock, throw and dagger to the eyes. Big Grin Nobody said this was pretty!

Cheers!
Jason

Les Maîtres d'Armes
Member of the
Chivalric Fighting Arts Association

... above all, you should feel in your conscience that your quarrel is good and just. - Le Jeu de la Hache
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