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Jean Henri Chandler
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 Posted: Thu 17 May, 2007 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | As a total newbee at this I have NO clue about not telegraphing |
Telegraphing just means making your intent apparent to your opponent. That can be with your eyes, your shoulders, your elbows, your hands, your weapon, the position of your feet, whether you balance your weight on the balls or heels of your feet, etc etc.
I think the most common are cocking back with the sword and looking at where you are planning to hit, or even worse, looking where you think your opponent will strike.
A big part of fencing is learning to have a "game face" and how to look at or watch your opponent without giving anything away. Another really important part is to be in a correct guard and not flex back before a strike but simply explode from your guard ... kind of like a good billiards player when they break.
In that clip the attacker was so focused on his attack it was very obvious how was going to cut (he did exactly the same thing both times) which is not really unusual for someone who is relatively inexperienced. In HEMA if you know what your opponent is going to do "indes" (before) there is always a suitible counter or in many cases several. A miesterhau like the guy used in this is one option which will work very well if perfectly executed, personally against someone that aggressive I would probably have used a hangen counter which is a bit easier to pull off safely IMO.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Jason G. Smith
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| Posted: Thu 17 May, 2007 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Just took my first introductory lesson with a local group teachings based mostly on Johannes Liechtenauer writings.
For those in Montréal or close by: http://lesduellistes.com/
Found it interesting and humbling: Not an instant swordmaster unfortunately Sad . Seriously though I kept my expectations low and enjoyed the class. |
Glad to see people finding this group (Les Duellistes). They're good people. I will be attending an I. 33 seminar on the 10th of June in Montreal with them - will you be attending?
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 17 May, 2007 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Jason G. Smith wrote: | | Quote: | Just took my first introductory lesson with a local group teachings based mostly on Johannes Liechtenauer writings.
For those in Montréal or close by: http://lesduellistes.com/
Found it interesting and humbling: Not an instant swordmaster unfortunately Sad . Seriously though I kept my expectations low and enjoyed the class. |
Glad to see people finding this group (Les Duellistes). They're good people. I will be attending an I. 33 seminar on the 10th of June in Montreal with them - will you be attending? |
Maybe, it depends on what answer I get if I ask to sit in as I haven't signed up for that discipline yet. ( longsword first.  )
But I would certainly enjoy just observing. I'm fairly sure that attending would be O.K. but I don't know what the conditions are for special events or cost if just observing. Oh, I am going to their competition day next week as an observer only and my courses start officially the next week: So this sort of thing seems possible, but I never assume anything without asking first.
Apart from the " paid for " training days there are non-paying training sessions they do at a local park and I already received an invitation by e-mail. 
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 17 May, 2007 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | | Jean Thibodeau wrote: | | As a total newbee at this I have NO clue about not telegraphing |
Telegraphing just means making your intent apparent to your opponent. That can be with your eyes, your shoulders, your elbows, your hands, your weapon, the position of your feet, whether you balance your weight on the balls or heels of your feet, etc etc.
I think the most common are cocking back with the sword and looking at where you are planning to hit, or even worse, looking where you think your opponent will strike.
A big part of fencing is learning to have a "game face" and how to look at or watch your opponent without giving anything away. Another really important part is to be in a correct guard and not flex back before a strike but simply explode from your guard ... kind of like a good billiards player when they break.
In that clip the attacker was so focused on his attack it was very obvious how was going to cut (he did exactly the same thing both times) which is not really unusual for someone who is relatively inexperienced. In HEMA if you know what your opponent is going to do "indes" (before) there is always a suitible counter or in many cases several. A miesterhau like the guy used in this is one option which will work very well if perfectly executed, personally against someone that aggressive I would probably have used a hangen counter which is a bit easier to pull off safely IMO.
J |
Thank, I should have said more precisely that I have no clue about how to avoid telegraphing my moves but you answered that well. I may have given the impression that I didn't know what telegraphing means. 
One thing seems to avoid moving the feet before moving the sword. Yes, doing the exact same thing both times in the movie would be the " ultimate " in telegraphing: Even if the guy might have won the first time out with the wooden swords it sure made it easier for the other guy to win with the real swords. The older samurai witnessing the duel says at much
" It's so obvious who won " and " what a stupid waste of one's life ". Great film that I have seen dozens of times.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Thu 17 May, 2007 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | Thank, I should have said more precisely that I have no clue about how to avoid telegraphing my moves but you answered that well. I may have given the impression that I didn't know what telegraphing means.
One thing seems to avoid moving the feet before moving the sword. Yes, doing the exact same thing both times in the movie would be the " ultimate " in telegraphing: Even if the guy might have won the first time out with the wooden swords it sure made it easier for the other guy to win with the real swords. The older samurai witnessing the duel says at much
" It's so obvious who won " and " what a stupid waste of one's life ". Great film that I have seen dozens of times. |
It's funny, I see that movie so differently myself now that I've been doing HEMA for a few years. Even my girlfriend, who is hardly a sword fanatic, can name all the guards they are in by their German names. If you want a good hint on how not to telegraph, look at the difference in how the winner of the duel moves and how the other guy moves. And when.
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Stephen Hand
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| Posted: Thu 17 May, 2007 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | | |
In HEMA if you know what your opponent is going to do "indes" (before) there is always a suitible counter or in many cases several. [/quote]
Vor is before in German. Indes is impossible to adequately translate but has a variety of subtleties of meaning, in the instant, simultaneously. It's related to (but ot synonomous with) Silver's concept of lying spent, that after an attack there will be a small but significant time before the sword can be moved again. Indes is the decision point that exists at the moment two swords have collided.
Moving the feet (or in fact anything) before the hand constitutes a false time. As I say to people, "this (indicating the sword) is a threat, this (indicating my body) is a target, what do you want to show the bad guys first?" Attacking with multiple steps is very difficult without giving a false time, that is showing a target that might be struck before your attack finishes. As was stated, it's exceptionally effective if you can do it, but it's hard to do. I reccommend that my students attack in Silver's fourth true time (with two or more steps or passes) in assaults to practice it but that they think very hard about whether they're good enough to use it in competitive bouts.
Cheers
Stephen
Stephen Hand
Editor, Spada, Spada II
Author of English Swordsmanship, Medieval Sword and Shield
Stoccata School of Defence
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Thu 17 May, 2007 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Hand wrote: | | Vor is before in German. Indes is impossible to adequately translate but has a variety of subtleties of meaning, in the instant, simultaneously. It's related to (but ot synonomous with) Silver's concept of lying spent, that after an attack there will be a small but significant time before the sword can be moved again. Indes is the decision point that exists at the moment two swords have collided. |
Of course you are right, I had a brain fart! 
J
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Thu 17 May, 2007 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | Listen, I'm not offended if you disagree, I know mine is a minority opinion, and thats ok, it's usually like that  ...
...I guess the bottom line for me is that I think real martial arts, Western or Eastern, looks good, it looks cool.
J |
Jean,
Guess what I was trying to get at is that this is a primary interest for you. You put the time and effort into learning these arts, but most people in the audience don't. I think you see and appreciate some of the finer detail that goes with becoming proficient because you are, from what I'm told, very proficient in this game.
When I go to the movies with my wife, my son, and his friends, they (we) like big and flashy because they (we) all can see it. They (we) don't see the details.
Effortless is not always appreciated as anything more than doing very little.
Perhaps a different but somewhat parallel example is my son. He has developed quite a dedication to wrestling. Thinks its something he wants to find a way to do in College. He works hard and wrestles year round, almost non-stop. In season he does his school practice and then goes to club practice at least two nights a week. Because he is passionate about it and spends so much time doing it, he can watch a match and tell me what style is being wrestled, what moves are being set up, and what was right or wrong in the attempts as its executed. In many cases I'm only able to see winner, loser, and effort.
Does any of that make sense?
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
Last edited by Joe Fults on Fri 18 May, 2007 5:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Thu 17 May, 2007 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Joe Fults wrote: | Effortless is not always appreciated as anything more than doing very little.
Perhaps a different but somewhat parallel example is my son. He has developed quite a dedication to wrestling. Thinks its something he wants to find a way to do in College. He works hard and wrestles year round, almost non-stop. In season he does his school practice and then goes to club practice at least two nights a week. Because he is passionate about it and spends so much time doing it, he can watch a match and tell me what style is being wrestled, what moves are being set up, and what was right or wrong in the attempts as its executed. In many cases I'm only able to see winner, loser, and effort.
Does any of that make sense? |
Very much so. And even the perspective of the same person can change with training--I used to enjoy every bit of Bernard Cornwell's Sharpe novels but now I just cringe every time he describes Sharpe's swordsmanship because the techniques he uses are often downright suicidal. The most jarring was the few duels he had with a cavalry broadsword against smallsword-armed opponents--I sort of ended up wondering why Sharp had never learned the hanging guard after so many years poking around with his sword. Or why some of his subordinates who were better fencers than him never taught it to him.
In the end, it just means that you and Jean don't really disagree at all--you're just looking at the same thing through different perspectives.
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Fri 18 May, 2007 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| Joe Fults wrote: |
Jean,
Does any of that make sense? |
Yeah, you are right, and I think Lafayette is right as well; we are looking at the same thing from different perspectives in a way.
Sure a specialized sparring bout or something can be boring, just like some people would rather watch "professional" wrestling rather than a real wrestling match, which I have to admit is a bit boring even to me because I don't know that much about wrestling. I know a lot of my friends are not particularly interested in my sparring videos no matter how many times I try to get them to watch them
But a bit part of that is that you are watching two (usually closely matched) professionals who are also (generally) just sparring and not actually trying to hurt each other. On the other hand, if you see an experienced guy taking out a not so experienced guy in a real fight to the death and it is a bit more obvious how effective the techniques are, and a lot more dramatic.
I think real martial arts incorporated into a fight can look really cool, probably not 100% realisitc, but I for one would like to see some new theatrical combat that was actually based in HEMA / WMA, just like a lot of the unarmed stuff in movies these days is based in Eastern Martial Arts, if only loosely in many cases.
in other words part of the audience you are right, will probably always like something totally fanciful, (pro wrestling never seems to wear out it's appeal) but part of the audience (me included) does seem to appreciate seeing some real or partly real martial technique, even if they don't understand it (which is why MMA is so popular these days).
So perhaps there is room for both kinds of entertainment
Jean
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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