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Rodolfo Martínez
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Posted: Sat 05 May, 2007 1:51 pm Post subject: The Knightly art of the longsword. |
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Hello people.
Again and again i fall in the contradiccions of the world browser sharing its unfaithful knowledge.
It is clear that during XV century knights and men-at-arms carried hand and a half swords into mounted or dismounted battle, as well as foot soldiers and mercenaries. But then, What happened to the knightly hand and a half swords in XVI century? Were them only used by foot mercenaries?
In some sites i found that longswords were rarely used during XVI century, becaming an infantry-only weapon, while in others i found that bastard swords were used (During the first half of the century since i haven´t found many examples of later longswords) by both mounted and foot troops.
Kind people gave me their opinions about that swords and their usage, and their knowledge helped me to guess that hand and a half swords probably were used by heavy cavalry soldiers too. I mean, maybe they were a bit long for melees but a lot of them are perfectly fit for single handed use, weighting around 1.5-3.xx pounds (Like the Durer and the English longsword http://www.myArmoury.com/review_aa_els.html / http://www.arms-n-armor.com/sword195.html)
So, Do you know if hand and a half longswords were used by heavy cavalry (Gendarmes, Condottieri and maybe Reiters too) during the first half of the XVI century, or the ¨knightly art of the bastardsword¨ was left aside for the infantry men?
Thanks guys.
¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
Last edited by Rodolfo Martínez on Sat 05 May, 2007 8:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Craig Peters
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Posted: Sat 05 May, 2007 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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Rodolfo,
I assume that your mention of the title of David Lindholm's book was unintended and has nothing to do with this post? I just want to double check.
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Rodolfo Martínez
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Posted: Sat 05 May, 2007 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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Not unintended at all, but i´m not refering to the book itself. I´m refering to the fact that the longsword was considered as a ¨knightly¨ weapon during XV century, but XV century men-at-arms used to fight on foot too, so, What happened then in XVI century with the heavy cavalry wich never or rarelly used to dismount?
Anyway, i should edit it to avoid confusion.
¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Bob Burns
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Posted: Sun 06 May, 2007 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I find the English Longsword, Durer Bastard Sword, Black Prince and the Edward III Sword by Arms & Armorall function beautifully one handed or two handed. I have all of these, plus the German Bastard Sword and the Highland Claymore.
Is there such a thing as too many fine quality swords?
Bob
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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Posted: Sun 06 May, 2007 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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Bob Burns wrote: | Yes, I find the English Longsword, Durer Bastard Sword, Black Prince and the Edward III Sword by Arms & Armorall function beautifully one handed or two handed. I have all of these, plus the German Bastard Sword and the Highland Claymore.
Is there such a thing as too many fine quality swords?
Bob |
Bob,
What does this have to do with this topic?
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Bob Burns
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Posted: Sun 06 May, 2007 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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Rodalpho mentioned:
Kind people gave me their opinions about that swords and their usage, and their knowledge helped me to guess that hand and a half swords probably were used by heavy cavalry soldiers too. I mean, maybe they were a bit long for melees but a lot of them are perfectly fit for single handed use, weighting around 1.5-3.xx pounds (Like the Durer and the English longsword
This is what I was responding to in just a short message.
Bob
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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Posted: Sun 06 May, 2007 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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Bob Burns wrote: | Rodalpho mentioned:
Kind people gave me their opinions about that swords and their usage, and their knowledge helped me to guess that hand and a half swords probably were used by heavy cavalry soldiers too. I mean, maybe they were a bit long for melees but a lot of them are perfectly fit for single handed use, weighting around 1.5-3.xx pounds (Like the Durer and the English longsword
This is what I was responding to in just a short message.
Bob |
Rodolfo is asking about 16th century swords. Of all the swords you mentioned you have only the German Bastard Sword dates from that era. The Durer might slide into the 16th century a little bit, but I think it's a stretch. The English Longsword is 15th century.
The rest have nothing to do with this topic. Let's try to keep it on-topic, please.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Bob Burns
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Posted: Sun 06 May, 2007 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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Rodalpho mentioned the Durer and the English Longsword, that's where I got side tracked.
Sorry about that.
Bob
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Jean Thibodeau
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Posted: Sun 06 May, 2007 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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Bob Burns wrote: | Rodalpho mentioned the Durer and the English Longsword, that's where I got side tracked.
Sorry about that.
Bob |
Oh, that might be my fault when I answered a P.M. from Rodolfo about the use of hand and a half swords from horseback and mentioned that those swords would be useable onehanded and probably where used in the late 15th century. And there is THE Durer drawing showing a knight wearing this type of sword around 1500 I think ?( Exactly why that specific A & A sword is called the Durer sword )..
I completely missed the fact that he was talking more of 16th century use ! So I may have put the idea in his head about the Durer ?
Actually how late would the hand and a half war swords have still been in common use by Gendarme ? At some point let's say 1550 and later some form of sword with a complex hilt one handed " cut & thrust " type blade would have been replaced the older longswords like the Durer ? Almost certainly the closer one gets to the 17th century.
So I think Rudolfo's original question is exactly when this change from longsword to other types happened ?
( That or I really don't understand the question )
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Rodolfo Martínez
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Posted: Mon 07 May, 2007 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | So I think Rudolfo's original question is exactly when this change from longsword to other types happened ?
( That or I really don't understand the question ) |
Yes, that´s one of the the points Jean, the other point is if those heavy cavalrymen TRULY used those hand and a half swords as side weapons, and what proof or document says so. I think they used both hand and a half and single handed swords, i think it was something more depending in personal preferences of the man-at-arms, what i´m not sure if historic facts say the same.
I posted the Durer because Jean showed me that beautiful and well balanced sword, and because it is dated till first years of the XVI century, when French Gendarmes were widely in service (And when i consider that they were wearing their best ¨uniform¨). The English longsword is a great example of a low weight hand and a half sword wich, if i´m not wrong and the style didn´t changed too much, could be a grat weapon for any Renaissance soldier.
Anyway, i truly apreciate your experiences in wielding longswords too, specially if they throw me some more light to the subject. You know, my question seems to be a bit obvious, but for those who are not deep enough in the subject, just like me, it becames something hard to answer since historic facts and curator´s imagination don´t use to be very differenciated (Just like the armour that i posted sometime ago of the Gothic armour wielding a huge zweihander) and reliable information is something hard to find in the web.
Wow Bob, Rodalpho... it´s funny to see my name evolving so fast...
¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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Rodolfo Martínez
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Posted: Thu 10 May, 2007 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, finally i found a mounted armour of the period with a hand-and-a-half sword. I have a lot of XVI century armours photos wielding longswords but most of them were Landsknetchs and some men-at-arms (On foot, not mounted).
Anyway, thanks for you help.
Attachment: 34.93 KB
¨Sólo me desenvainarás por honor y nunca me envainarás sin gloria¨
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