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Tim V
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 Posted: Mon 30 Apr, 2007 4:51 pm Post subject: Tulwar question |
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I recently purchased (though I don't have it in hand yet) an indo-persian tulwar relic from a vendor on eBay. It is supposed to be dated to the 17th century and reportedly was "found" in Poland (not sure if that means it was purchased there or if it was excavated there). Anyway, since I know nothing of these type of swords and am a complete newbie to the sword collecting hobby, I thought this would be a good place to ask for opinions about the age and origins of this weapon. I also was wondering about cleaning and care of it when I have it safely home. Thanks in advance for all help - here is a picture and I will post a few closeups as well. Wish they were better but it's all I have right now
 [/img]
Last edited by Tim V on Tue 01 May, 2007 6:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tim V
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| Posted: Mon 30 Apr, 2007 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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Since I have done a bit of looking on the internet for information I have come across a couple of tulwars similar to this one that are identified as Mughal (alternative spelling Mogul which appears to be persian for Mongol) tulwars. They have similar diamond shaped hilts with the same style knuckle guard but I have no date on them. If this is indeed a mughal tulwar and the proposed date of 17th c. is correct then it is possible that it came to be in Poland during the late 1600's when the Turks (along with the Mughal/Tartars) waged Jihad in Poland. Any thoughts on this hypothesis?
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Allan Senefelder
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 30 Apr, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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Given the dark chocolaty and the missing sections of the tip its certainly possible this piece is dug. Baring funny things in the soil the thinnest exposed areas are the first to rot underground.
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Tim V
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| Posted: Tue 01 May, 2007 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Allan Senefelder wrote: | | Given the dark chocolaty and the missing sections of the tip its certainly possible this piece is dug. Baring funny things in the soil the thinnest exposed areas are the first to rot underground. |
Thanks for the input Allen, I'm almost certain that it was dug. Can't be sure if it was dug in Poland or if it just happened to show up there somehow. Any thoughts about the age and origin though?
Anyone?
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Terry Crain
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| Posted: Tue 01 May, 2007 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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Hi, I would be very skeptical about an indo persian tulwar being "excavated" in Poland. Similar tulwars are plentiful and can be found with 17th, 18th and 19th century origins with virtually identical style as this one, which is fairly generic and typical in style.
Indian tulwars have been around for the last three centuries and you see may on e-bay in poor condition. May parts of India are tropical, humid and rainy. A rusted tulwar does not a relic of Polish invasion make. Many tulwars were taken as souvenirs by British during colonial occupation, so they show up all over UK and Europe.
This is an Indian weapon and India did not, to my knowlege invade Poland. Looks like an 19th century piece to me, but very little to go on.
You are correct that the Moghul Empire was originally decended from a Mongol Khanate and is and interesting and easily researched subject.
All that being said, the tulwar is an actual fighting weapon often hand forged and in my opinion, always of value in a sword collection of eastern arms (ie. north African/middle-eastern/indo persian edged weapons), along with pulwars, nimchas, yataghans, shamshirs just to name a few more classic arch-types. You may wish to check out the terrific recent publication on Iranian Arms by a fellow formite and expert on eastern arms and armour.
Enjoy your piece of history.
Terry Crain
A/K/A
Donal Grant
Honor, not Honors!
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Tim V
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| Posted: Tue 01 May, 2007 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for you help Terry. I'm a bit confused about how to figure out how old it is though. You comment first that
| Terry Crain wrote: | | Similar tulwars are plentiful and can be found with 17th, 18th and 19th century origins with virtually identical style as this one, which is fairly generic and typical in style... |
and then
| Terry Crain wrote: | | Looks like an 19th century piece to me, but very little to go on. |
What are the guidelines that one should go by for these weapons to narrow down a range of 300 years? Your comments seem to be kind of contradictory and hence my confusion. Maybe that book you mentioned would be of help to me? Can you tell me the title and author so I can pick one up? Are there other books on the subject that would be helpful as well?
Thanks again, Tim
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 01 May, 2007 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Tim V wrote: | Maybe that book you mentioned would be of help to me? Can you tell me the title and author so I can pick one up? Are there other books on the subject that would be helpful as well?
Thanks again, Tim |
Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani
Arms and Armor from Iran
The Bronze Age to the End of the Qajar Period
The book can be found here on this Topic with full information and a link to the European publisher:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=9658
I ordered the book and got very good service from the publisher.
A very short review by me:
Really great as the book is a resource for scholars but written in a clear and friendly style
that can be enjoyed and understood by much wider public: One would wish that more books dealing with
arms and armour were such a pleasant read. ( Form as well as outstanding content, text and visuals ).
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Tim V
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| Posted: Tue 01 May, 2007 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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Merci Jean! I'll look it up. What are your thoughts on the age of this piece?
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 01 May, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Tim V wrote: | | Merci Jean! I'll look it up. What are your thoughts on the age of this piece? |
I can't really help you about the age as it could be very old or much younger and just exposed to the elements.
A real expert would have to look at it since period might depend on some very subtle things when a weapon type was used over many centuries with little stylistic changes.
The best an amateur can say is that it is aTulwar.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Tim V
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| Posted: Tue 01 May, 2007 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks anyway for your help Jean.
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Tim V
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| Posted: Thu 03 May, 2007 10:55 am Post subject: |
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I'm wondering if anyone else has any thoughts on the age of this piece? Are there certain characteristics of the hilt or blade that are indicative of a time period that this could be ascribed to?
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Hisham Gaballa
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| Posted: Thu 03 May, 2007 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| Tim V wrote: | | I'm wondering if anyone else has any thoughts on the age of this piece? Are there certain characteristics of the hilt or blade that are indicative of a time period that this could be ascribed to? |
Being the owner of a tulwar (and a tulwar hilt) myself, I can tell you that there is a glut of these things on ebay, with a wide range in quality. I have a strong gut feeling that most of the ebay talwars date to the late 19th/ early 20th century.
P. S. Rawson's "The Indian Sword", while a rather dry read has quite a lot of info on tulwars. You can find it on abebooks.com, it's pricey though.
Talwar hilts did change slightly over time, but by the end of the 17th century Tulwar hilt evolution seems to have stopped and tulwars remined pretty much unchanged afterwards, except for the style of decoration. Of course if your sword is completely plain that won't help you.
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Tim V
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| Posted: Fri 04 May, 2007 7:38 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Hisham,
I'm starting to think that it may not be possible to really get a reasonably accurate date on any basic Tulwar since they are so generic in style for such a long period of time. Is that true or are there maybe some subtleties in design or manufacturing that would date them more accurately?
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Kerim Mamedov
Location: Poland Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 53
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| Posted: Thu 10 May, 2007 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Tim V wrote: | | ....when the Turks (along with the Mughal/Tartars) waged Jihad in Poland. ..... |
8-O
well, that probably also come from internet research...
why not to visit a library and read some history handbook?
sorry for offtop, but I'm stuned
I have some idea about how it's going on here in Poland - 95% of indian/persian weapons and armor in Polish collections was "digged" in London.
And IMO it's late 19'
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This is a standard topic