[John Facundus]

Greetings all. I would greatly appreciate any leads to info on conquistador era swords. I have always had a great interest in the middle ages, I have collected and practiced with my Albion and Atrims and now I am reading more on the warfare of the later periods. I am looking for a high quality, usable sword of the early Conquistador time frame. Any ideas? I have just finished a few terrific books on the subject and my interest is up. Thanks in advance. John

[Shawn Henthorn]

Hi there,
If you ever get out this direction check out the Panhandle Plains Historical Museum. It has quite a few arms and armor artifacts from Coranado's expedition. This group of conquistadors seems to have had a love for the italian rapier. A quality rapier and very close to one on display that was accutaly used by a conquistador can be found here http://www.arms-n-armor.com/rapier168.html i hope this helps.
Shawn

[Jean-Carle Hudon]

Hello Shawn,
a while ago there was quite a long exchange on the subject of the rapier. Some people were under the impression that rapiers were reserved to civilian use and brawling in the streets of european cities in the Renaissance. I was more in agreement with those who took the view that rapiers were also issued as side arms to military units ( musketeers,France, was the most obvious example, with Mr Polding also giving some ordnance examples from Scandinavia). So my question to you is this, are those rapiers you have seen the originals brought to America by the spanish expedition ( Conquistadores), or are they interpretations of their weapons made by some modern museum curator?
Thank you.
JC Hudon

[Shawn Henthorn]

hey Jean,
yes, they are actual examples from the time period and these were actually carried by the conquistadors of Coronado. The full Italian rapier was found in Palo Duro state park and there are also 3 rapier blades from the expedition that have been found on various ranches in the area. The full rapier was found along side a shirt of mail, a helmet and two halberds.

[GG Osborne]

Also check out the Appendix and other citations from Peterson's Arms and Armor in Colonial America. There are several good illustrations (one from the Company of Military Historians on the Don Juan de Ornate expedition which seems wekk done) and several inventories of the equipment actually used and carried on various expeditions. Good luck!

[Felix Wang]

One thing I would like to mention is that one has to be careful about understanding the word "rapier". Most swords of the conquistadors' era had straight blades and complex hilts; a lot of museums and many books refer to all of them as "rapiers". This does not mean they were all primarily thrusting weapons (which some authors mean when they say "rapier", and most Hollywood movies show). Many swords of the era had strong cutting capbilities: see these two examples of rapiers from A & A

http://armor.com/rapier164.html

http://armor.com/rapier127.html

The blades are obviously different, and I suspect (I don't own either one) their handling is different also.

(Search for threads on "cutting" and "rapiers" , here and on swordforum - if you have a lot of time to read!)

[Shawn Henthorn]

Hey Felix,
I know what you mean about misunderstanding the rapier thing. Trust me though these are deffinatly the thrusting only types.

[Gordon Frye]

Shawn;

These must be fairly new displays, as I don't recall seeing them when I last visited the Plains-Panhandle Museum (but then that was a while back, I'm afraid!) I'd love to get back there for another visit some day, as I very much enjoyed the museum.

GG;

The problem with going by the manifests from both the Coronado and Oñate expeditions is that they were quite vague (at least to our obsessive requirements for distinction) in their descriptions of most items. As I recall, they simply state "Sword" (or rather "espada", I should say!), rather than giving any greater detail. There is a wonderful series of books by George Hammond and Agapito Rey, from University of New Mexico Press (1940-58) giving details of the manifests and are probably available through your local university library. WELL worth the time and effort of digging through if you're interested in the subject.

Per artifacts, I would be particularly suspicious of any complex hilted rapiers being attributed to the Coronado Expedition in particular, as they were in their infancy in 1540, and unless excavated properly with plenty of other material that pointed directly to that particular expedition, I would be hesitant to say that it was. The Oñate Expedition on the other hand was almost 60 years later (1598), and I have no doubt that many of the swords, if not most of them, were bearing complex hilts, so it would be far more likely that any such swords found would be from that point on in history. But of course the problem would remain that Palo Duro Canyon was a favorite haunt for Native American bands, and any war trophies gathered from the New Mexico settlements would have a tendency to migrate to that area over time... you see the problem. Anyway, I'm not disputing the museum's findings, just suggesting that there's a LOT of grey area in the realm of "found items" such as those swords. Complex-hilt (and later cup-hilt) swords and armour such as maille was used for a LONG time on the Spanish Colonial Frontier, and there was ample time for it to find it's way to the Llano Estacado.

I love this subject, though!

Cheers!

Gordon

[Shawn Henthorn]

Hmmm, that is a very good point and one that I have failed to think of. If this were proven to be the case then alot of what we thik we know around here could change dramaticly. The pieces where taken from an area long believed to be a camp site of Coradado but I dont know if there is any other evedince to this. I had kind of wondered about the dateing givein by the museum of the rapier and to teh dates given to the blades found by ranchers but this time period is out side of my main intrest (11th -14th cen). Maybe the museum is crediting these finds the Coranado expedition when in fact they are from a later one or as you say prehaps from indian "war trophies".
Also I dont know when you were here last but I first remember the displays about 8 years ago, they had them for quite a while befor that but did not display them. They are housed on the basement floor. My wife has a short day tommorow (she goes to WT) so I will try to go with her and get some pics of the mail, halberds, helmet, and rapier.
P.S. BTW if you do get back down here look me up

[Gordon Frye]

Shawn;

Thanks for the invite! It's been over 10 years since I was there, which is pretty sad, because I love the area. My first wife's family was from Amarillo and Clayton NM, so we spent a lot of time there visiting but that was a while ago. I'll have to make it a point to get back through there next time I have to go cross-country.

I knew one of the curators there way back when, one Dr. T. Lindsay Baker who is now off doing other interesting things, so I'll try to run him down to see what he might be able to inform me on. Of course, I could also just email the museum staff, but that would be too easy. What a concept though!

Cheers!

Gordon

[John Facundus]

Thanks to all of you for such a great response. I knew you guys could lead me in the right direction. Cheers, John

[Eric Myers]

Arms & Armor's Serenissima rapier is a likely candidate too, and is similar in style to the sword of Cortez in Ashdown's "European Arms and Armor". A similar hilt is shown in "Swords and Hilt WEapons" by Coe et al, and described as Italian.

[Gabriel Lebec]

Hi John,

You may be interested in this thread, whose author was also interested in swords of the conquistadors. The A&A Serenissima rapier mentioned by Eric was also recommended in that thread, among other possibilities.

-Gabriel

[John Facundus]

Thanks a bunch, What's the reputation of arms and armour? I see them mentioned quite a bit, I have checked their site and can't find delivery time etc... Is their gear up to the quality of say...Albion or Atrim, both of which I have and love. Thanks in advance, John

[Gabriel Lebec]

Arms & Armor (note that the company name is spelled with no "u") has a very high reputation. myArmoury's own Reviews section features some high praise and satisfaction for their service and quality. I don't know their shipping time personally, but I'm sure you could contact them and ask, or perhaps someone here can give an estimate.

[Brian Kent]

Arms and Armor has a great rep throughout the sword community, just looking at the site makes me want to order few blades. I think its a conspiracy to make me go broke lol.

Brian

[John Facundus]

I just bought the German Bastard Sword from Arms and Armor. Chris ,the owner, seemed to be a real nice guy on the phone, I was lucky that they had one on the rack in stock. Thanks for everyones replies. I think if I were standing on a causeway in Tenochtitlan holding back hordes of Aztecs I would find some comfort in the length, heft and power of this sword. The time frame is right for the 1519 + campaign with Cortez. Maybe one of the spaniards carried a sword such as this....Thanks again to all who brought up interesting subjects. John

[Gabriel Lebec]

I cannot comment on the historical appropriateness of your choice (not that I have any reason to doubt it - I am simply interested in other fields and don't feel qualified to comment on this topic), but as far as the selection of modern recreation goes, I think you're spot on. The "GBS" as it is informally known is tremendously popular and I have to imagine that it is for good reason. Enjoy,
-Gabriel L.