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Lancelot Chan
Industry Professional
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 Posted: Wed 25 Apr, 2007 4:20 am Post subject: |
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You are not sounding like an idiot, don't worry. In fact I echo your experience in my years of practice. In the past I was one heck of a heavy hitter believed in hitting as hard as I could and had once knocked someone out for 30 secs by hitting him in the side of the head that was protected by football helmet. Now I've become one who only hit as hard as required to inflict enough damage on the selected targets. That means I hit lighter on fingers, wrist, eyes, necks, and harder on shoulders, head, torso and thigh. I also agree with you that the modern notion of every sword fights ended lethally was probably a bit skewed. From what I've read, there were many "ransom" fights in the past among the nobles and not to mention the "first blood" duel in the later time. Personally, I'm interested in these non-lethal styles of fighting just as much as hitting to kill.
| Ira P wrote: | This is one of my first post here, so be a little gentle (God, I'm going to get so owned)...
Anyway, based on my earlier experience (I go to Stoccata in Sydney for more than a year now) it seems to me that it is far easier for me to not pull the blade when it hits. It's just so much easier to just allow the blade to do whatever it wants, which is to land, smack, as hard as it can upon an opponent. When I first began people complained that I hit them too hard with my modified shinai. It took me a while to gain the control needed to hit soft (which is why I waited a long time before considering a blunt blade).
Also, who said that you've got to kill your opponent to win a fight? From what I've heard, there were duels where the one who first "drew blood" wins. Besides that, if I hit my opponent and he didn't hit me, no matter where and how deep the cut is I still would have the advantage since he would be in pain or losing blood and that alone would affect his performance.
Finally, you don't need to be able to cut newspapers to cut flesh.
I hope I don't sound like an idiot, but that's my two cents. |
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Wed 25 Apr, 2007 5:17 am Post subject: |
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Also, who said that you've got to kill your opponent to win a fight? From what I've heard, there were duels where the one who first "drew blood" wins. Besides that, if I hit my opponent and he didn't hit me, no matter where and how deep the cut is I still would have the advantage since he would be in pain or losing blood and that alone would affect his performance.
Finally, you don't need to be able to cut newspapers to cut flesh.
I hope I don't sound like an idiot, but that's my two cents. |
You don't sound like an idiot, but I believe you are wrong.
Some of the time, in some countries, people fought duels to the first blood. This occurred mostly after the end of Judicial Combat after the Duel of Jarnac in 1540. Duelling traditions varied quite a bit from region to region. In Italy for example it was common to fight to the first blood, in Spain and France more often people would be killed in a duel.
Judicial combats could be to the first blood, or they could be to the death. I won't get into a lot of detail on this, just look at the Fechtbooks. Several images show the coffins in the backgrounds
Street encounters, ambushes, bushwhackings and attempted robberies were often much more serious.
The fact is Historically, certainly in the 15th century and before, many if not most sword fights were in fact to the death. Even until the 19th century here in New Orleans, deaths in duels were a chronic problem the authorities had to deal with. Even in a gentlemanly duel there is always the possibility of an escalation, you have to know how to handle that don't you? Don't be the guy showing up for the nerfed bouting when the other guy is determined to kill you.
The point is not so much that you would ALWAYS need to kill your opponent, if you were a fantastic fencer even a man trying to rob you might need to only be injured. The point however is that you need to train to kill, so that when you needed to do so you could. Training to pull your strikes every single time is an excellent way to learn how to free play in a safe manner, it is not a great way to learn a killing art. I don't mean to come across like some foaming at the mouth bloodthirsty wingnut, I'm only pointing out the reality of these Ars Martialis we study. This isn't paddycake, it's not even olympic sport fencing or kendo. Those are all about control exactly as you describe.
But Lichtenauer tradition longsword for example, is primarily about killing. Again, look at the bloody images in the Fechtbuchs, swords through heads and that sort of thing. You don't get that with a quick flick cut that taps someone gently.
Jean
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Last edited by Jean Henri Chandler on Wed 25 Apr, 2007 7:05 am; edited 3 times in total
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Wed 25 Apr, 2007 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| Lancelot Chan wrote: | | You are not sounding like an idiot, don't worry. In fact I echo your experience in my years of practice. In the past I was one heck of a heavy hitter believed in hitting as hard as I could and had once knocked someone out for 30 secs by hitting him in the side of the head that was protected by football helmet. Now I've become one who only hit as hard as required to inflict enough damage on the selected targets. That means I hit lighter on fingers, wrist, eyes, necks, and harder on shoulders, head, torso and thigh. |
Lance, you know I respect you and your fencing skills. And I know you have been espousing this 'hit lightly' point of view, you have a certain fencing style which works for you. But I do not agree with you that your quick style trumps a harder hitting style. We have guys in our group who fight just like you do and are just as experienced. I don't have any more trouble with them than I do with the more aggressive, hard-hitting fighters, in fact often to the contrary.
I've also done as much test cutting as you have, though perhaps not with as many very nice quality swords. We have an Albion, we have a Gus-Trim, we have several Windlass and even some antique katanas. I have seen your cutting videos and I have seen what kind of cuts we can produce. I don't agree with you that your light cuts in your cutting videos would necessarily be sufficient to immediately stop someone from hitting you, especially if you hit them anywhere else other than their lead hand.
I was a medic in the Army and I saw what kind of horrific injuries people can endure and even ignore or not be aware of in the short term. It's an Historical fact that a lot of duels, particularly later in the era, that both combattants often recieved mortal wounds. If I was in a fight for my life, I would want to kill or maim the other guy as quickly as I can so as to be sure he cannot injure or kill me.
Also again, lets not forget that there are blunt weapons in the repetoire of HEMA, quarterstaves for example, singlesticks for another. With a staff or a stick you have to strike with considerable force to cause injury. Imagine the scenario where you are trying to fend off a person with a knife for example.
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Personally, I'm interested in these non-lethal styles of fighting just as much as hitting to kill. |
So am I to be honest, but I don't conflate the two, and if you train to fight 'non-lethal' all the time you will not learn how to fight 'lethal'.
Jean
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
Last edited by Jean Henri Chandler on Wed 25 Apr, 2007 7:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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Steven H
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| Posted: Wed 25 Apr, 2007 5:49 am Post subject: |
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Back to the topic at hand-
Have any of you tried leather simulators built along the lines of a leather dussack? I've wanted to try this for several months now but need other interested people to justify the cost of an entire bend of thick leather.
I suspect/hope that such a simulator would have the appropriate qualities in the bind especially since the leather could be oiled. A sch80 PVC pipe as the core and it should be no more or less hard a hit than a shinai.
That at least is the hope.
Jean-
Where do you get sch80 pipe (Home Depot doesn't seem to have it)?
And where do you get the orthopedic foam? I've been using the foam that cheap camping bedrolls are made from, but I'm interested in any improvements I can make.
Thanks.
Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Elling Polden
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| Posted: Wed 25 Apr, 2007 6:35 am Post subject: |
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As far as I can see, the major problem with no-steel sparring is that the weapons do not react like steel to contact.
This means that binds and deflections do not work properly, offseting the balance between defense and offense.
In my experience there is nothing that indicates that you can not fight safely with steel weapon, with a mild level of protection.
hitting people hard can often become a crutch, and keep you from focusing on the finer points. On the other extreme, light contact can quickly deteriorate into "sport fighting", as seen in for instance the kind of competitive reenactment fighting practiced in western Europe (including by my group).
As with most other things, one must be aware what one is doing, and the limitations of the style. We compensate for our normally sportified ways by having a seperate system for "realistic" duels, with a full body target, and only good hits counting. (often fighting to two or three hits without breaks, to make people defend themselves when attacking). There are still stuff we would like to do, but most of this is close combat and wrestling.
"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Wed 25 Apr, 2007 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| Steven H wrote: | | Back to the topic at hand- |
Thanks! Every time i bring something up about sparring weapons it devolves into some kind of argument like this, I'm sure it's my own fault due to poor communication skills, because obviously some people are interested in a better sparring weapon.
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Have any of you tried leather simulators built along the lines of a leather dussack? I've wanted to try this for several months now but need other interested people to justify the cost of an entire bend of thick leather. |
Yeah I can't believe i forgot about those. I've never actually seen one close up. Could somebody write up an entry for those as they currently exist? I'm real interested in those.
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I suspect/hope that such a simulator would have the appropriate qualities in the bind especially since the leather could be oiled. A sch80 PVC pipe as the core and it should be no more or less hard a hit than a shinai.
That at least is the hope.
Jean-
Where do you get sch80 pipe (Home Depot doesn't seem to have it)?
And where do you get the orthopedic foam? I've been using the foam that cheap camping bedrolls are made from, but I'm interested in any improvements I can make.
Thanks. |
You can get Sch 80 PVC at specialist plumbing supply houses. They also carry it at most LOWES but the problem is sometimes (especially with the plumbing supply houses) the PVC gets warped due to poor storage techniques.
For weapons of an overall length of 45" or less, you can use these pre-cut 48" "riser nipples" which are I believe manufactured for high-pressure plumbing and fountains.
http://www.amazon.com/1-2x48-PVC-Riser-Nipple...amp;sr=8-2
This is the 1/2" pipe so you want to cut those to no longer than 42" for the core, adding pommels and thrusting tip will add a few inches. Any longer and it will get a bit bendy. For longer weapons you need to use the 3/4" core.
The orthopedic EVA foam I use is from ACOR Orthopedic. The brand name is 'Microcell Puff'. There are many types of suitibly dense EVA foams out there, and other polypropeline foams, but I haven't experimented with them yet. I actually like the blue camping pad stuff just fine for the edges of weapons, I think it's better than that Landau foam ARMA likes, but you need something thinner and firmer for the flats.
You can buy a sheet of 1/8" microcell puff for about $17 delivered, thats enough to make 3 or 4 swords. Keep in mind that different colored foam have different firmness, i have found the red is too hard and the yellow is too soft. Blue is goldie locks "just right".
http://store.friddles.com/browse.cfm/4,3887.htm
You can get them here but I buy them directly from ACOR.
For the edges you can use either a 1/2" or 3/8" sheet of the same stuff, or you can use the blue camping pad foam which is softer. Depends if you want more realism or more safety / less pain.
I also use these aluminum alloy corner braces for the cross,
http://www.amazon.com/ACE-01-3404-262-CORNER-...amp;sr=8-5
They seem to be great, they are seemingly indestructably strong but will bend on a very hard impact, which I consider a safety feature. I put some of the 1/8" microcell puff around them and 1" of 3/8" foam on the tips. For further safety precautions.
We use 3/4" zinc or galvanized washers to make the pommels though I don't think that's ideal simply because it's somewhat difficult to attach them with the duct tape, you have to know what you are doing to get it good and tight.
We have also been talking about using thinner rectangular shaped cores, possibly pvc fence rails, and using slipping material for the outside of the weapons like the hard surfaced mouse pads. Right now I'm trying to find sheets of that stuff in sufficient lengths.
Jean
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
Last edited by Jean Henri Chandler on Wed 25 Apr, 2007 7:33 am; edited 3 times in total
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Wed 25 Apr, 2007 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| Elling Polden wrote: | As far as I can see, the major problem with no-steel sparring is that the weapons do not react like steel to contact.
This means that binds and deflections do not work properly, offseting the balance between defense and offense.
In my experience there is nothing that indicates that you can not fight safely with steel weapon, with a mild level of protection.
hitting people hard can often become a crutch, and keep you from focusing on the finer points. On the other extreme, light contact can quickly deteriorate into "sport fighting", as seen in for instance the kind of competitive reenactment fighting practiced in western Europe (including by my group).
As with most other things, one must be aware what one is doing, and the limitations of the style. We compensate for our normally sportified ways by having a seperate system for "realistic" duels, with a full body target, and only good hits counting. (often fighting to two or three hits without breaks, to make people defend themselves when attacking). There are still stuff we would like to do, but most of this is close combat and wrestling. |
Well said, I don't agree with every detail but I think you have the basic dilemma, there is always a tradeoff, several in fact, the question is whether we believe that we can get closer to the 'best of all possible worlds'. I think we can. I agree live steel is ideal for many uses, I personally agree with the basic 'triangulation' idea of Schola Glaidatoria and other groups, of using full contact weapons for sparring, hardwood wasters and blunt steel for drill and light or controlled free play, sharps for test-cutting etc..
Lets not forget even blunt steel is a tradeoff. Few steel blunts handle identically to a good quality sharp, particularly at the bind.
Jean
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Greg Coffman
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| Posted: Wed 25 Apr, 2007 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish with this ranking system as it is. By placing items in different tiers, you are making decisions and I don't know what value system you are using to discriminate between items. Are you suggesting that higher tiers denote weapons which are better simulators for swords? Are you suggesting that you can hit harder in sparring with them? Are you targeting for sparring purposes only? Are you looking for weapons which have more value in the application of learning WMA? Are you looking for weapons which are more important for a martial arts practitioner to use or learn from?
From what I understand, you are putting this together so you can better come up with what would be a 4th gen sparring weapon. So let's brainstorm what that would ideally look like...
Can hit at or near full speed with reasonable safety
Flexes and binds like true steel
Balanced and proportioned correctly
Not on this list would be historical accuracy or affordability. It shouldn't cost as much as a good quality real sword but if it was this useful for sparring then the price could still be high and still be worth the money. It couldn't be historically accurate because we know what people actually trained with and those weapons are already on your list. Also, what amount of padding and protection are you considering for the the fighters? With additional protection on the person, the weapon can hit harder without being "softer" itself.
Personally, I think this description fits with new latex wasters. They may not bind or flex quite as truly to steel but they come closer than anything else. I would consider them to be a 4th gen weapon by your description, as I understand it. Also, as mentioned before, many of these weapons are tools and have other purposes for which they serve. A waster is very important to someone just getting into WMA and can be used for many different things including free play. Steel is necessary for anyone who wants to learn how real swords actually feel on one another. And sharps, which have no utility for sparring are necessary to teach practitioners how to cut. These are all important tools which have their place and should not be evaluated based solely on their function for sparring. There will not ever be a one-tool-solution for what we do.
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Wed 25 Apr, 2007 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Greg Coffman wrote: | | Are you targeting for sparring purposes only? Are you looking for weapons which have more value in the application of learning WMA? Are you looking for weapons which are more important for a martial arts practitioner to use or learn from? |
Yes. Per the thread subject, this is about sparring weapons only. I agree with you that many more types of training weapons are needed. The group I train with has sharps, steel blunts, flexible steel rapiers, aluminum wasters, hardwood wasters, and padded wasters. I believe steel blunts and hardwood wasters are useful for drill and sharps are absolutely critical to do test cutting with to learn how to cut.
This is essentially what Schola Gladiatoria refers to as a "triangulated" system of using different training tools to learn different aspects of fencing.
I also hold the controversial opinion that sparring full-speed, full-contact is useful for learning HEMA effectively.
The three generation typology does not indicate any value system. It is simply a hierarchy of effectiveness for full-contact sparring, with the sole purpose of developing a "fourth Generation" sparring weapon which is more suitable than what is currently available. I do not mean to denigrate any of the weapons, they all have their purposes and are all useful for different things. The hierarchy only represents suitability for full-contact HEMA sparring. For before 1700 
| Quote: |
From what I understand, you are putting this together so you can better come up with what would be a 4th gen sparring weapon. So let's brainstorm what that would ideally look like...
Can hit at or near full speed with reasonable safety
Flexes and binds like true steel
Balanced and proportioned correctly
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I would add to that, slips or slides at the bind similarly to steel blunts or hardwood wasters.
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Not on this list would be historical accuracy or affordability. It shouldn't cost as much as a good quality real sword but if it was this useful for sparring then the price could still be high and still be worth the money. It couldn't be historically accurate because we know what people actually trained with and those weapons are already on your list. |
Another purpose of the list is so that people can consider which training weapon they might want to use based on whatever criteria they liked. Note I included an entry for cost and for "Period" ,meaning Historically consistent. People could theoretically import that list into an excel spreadsheet or some database, and sort it by whichever criteria they preferred.
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Also, what amount of padding and protection are you considering for the the fighters? With additional protection on the person, the weapon can hit harder without being "softer" itself. |
I was talking to Lance about this. It's more of an issue for his group and our group for some others like in Canada or Northern Europe, due to the heat and humidity of where we live and train. Gambesons are not ideal for us except in Winter (not sure if there is much of a Winter in Hong Kong or not). I don't have a problem with anyone using them, or any level of protection they want. My only caveat would be that if you are trying to learn what the Germans called blossfechten, i.e. unarmored fencing, you might not want to wear a bunch of heavy gear. But that is entirely up to you.
Many people are perfectly satisfied with what I call "Second Generation" sparring weapons. These are weapons which generally require some extra protective gear and or more careful control when doing free play. Many people do not believe full-speed / full - contact sparring is necessary or even desirable . I have no problem with any of that, I encourage them to use whatever works best for them.
I personally would like to see some better sparring simulators for flat-out full-speed sparring because that is what I like to do and what I believe works best for me for my HEMA training.
| Quote: |
Personally, I think this description fits with new latex wasters. They may not bind or flex quite as truly to steel but they come closer than anything else. |
I have only seen one pair of latex covered wasters, I think they were made by Purpleheart Armory? They were coated with a very non-slippery type material, considerably "stickier" than duct tape on the padded wasters we were more familiar with, and vastly more than hardwood wasters, aluminum, shinai or steel blunts. The balance and weight were ok (a little light) but the cores were wood and seemed to break easily. Of course that was about two or three years ago.
Do you have links to any new latex wasters which may have been made recently?
| Quote: | | A waster is very important to someone just getting into WMA and can be used for many different things including free play. Steel is necessary for anyone who wants to learn how real swords actually feel on one another. And sharps, which have no utility for sparring are necessary to teach practitioners how to cut. These are all important tools which have their place and should not be evaluated based solely on their function for sparring. There will not ever be a one-tool-solution for what we do. |
Agreed on all counts. Thanks for your comments, seriously.
Jean
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Greg Coffman
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| Posted: Wed 25 Apr, 2007 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | | Do you have links to any new latex wasters which may have been made recently? |
I'm sorry. By latex wasters I actually meant the new nylon wasters on the ARMA forum to which you linked. Those were what I was refering to in my post. Also, by flexing and binding as a criteria I mean and agree with you that the ideal wasters should be able to slide like steel does. From what I understand, these new nylon wasters fit all of those criteria.
They flex, not quite like steel but more than wood (which of course doesn't). The slide, not quite like steel but more than anything else not made of metal. Those are the binding characteristics which I am aware of. They hit maybe a bit harder than well padded weapons but not as hard as wood and not nearly as hard as steel. Oh, and they are indestructable. Banning sparring that includes full contact with people (different from full contact with other wasters), they seem to be ideal. And if padding is used, near full contact should be possible.
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Wed 25 Apr, 2007 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Greg Coffman wrote: | | I'm sorry. By latex wasters I actually meant the new nylon wasters on the ARMA forum to which you linked. They flex, not quite like steel but more than wood (which of course doesn't). The slide, not quite like steel but more than anything else not made of metal. Those are the binding characteristics which I am aware of. They hit maybe a bit harder than well padded weapons but not as hard as wood and not nearly as hard as steel. Oh, and they are indestructable. Banning sparring that includes full contact with people (different from full contact with other wasters), they seem to be ideal. And if padding is used, near full contact should be possible. |
I agree with you these are extremely promising. I think some major HEMA groups in the US and Europe are already trying to adopt them as a standard training weapon. They are not widely available or cheap yet but that is only a matter of time. I think they are probably the best of the Third Generation weapons and could be even more promising as a core (if it can work thin enough) for a Fourth Generation weapon.
I don't think they qualify as Fourth as-is because they do require a bit more protection than some people would like to use. One of the things I would personally like to see in a Fourth Generation weapon would be the ability to use it without a Gambeson, extra joint protection and a gorget. That may be asking too much, but if we could keep the overall cost of HEMA fencing down I think it would be better for a lot of smaller groups and groups which are growing rapidly.
I am also trying to get some new types of sparring helmets made which combine the features of a fencing mask with say, a lacrosse helmet, preferably with a visor you can lock into an 'up' position or put down for use with weapons like flexible steel rapiers, or nylon wasters.
You are right on the money though these do seem to be the most promising of whats currently out there right now.
Jean
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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Greg Coffman
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| Posted: Thu 26 Apr, 2007 7:23 am Post subject: |
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The nylon wasters could be used without a gorget, joint protection, etc., provided they are not used at 100% full contact with the person. Thay could still be used with full content against other wasters. For full contact, additional protection either on the waster or on the person is required. Of course, the sparring that they do allow is at a much higher level of intent than wasters, blunts, or anything other than a padded weapon.
Making padden weapon with nylon cores is interresting. Shouldn't there be some way to chemically treat the outside of the padded weapon to make it slick...some kind of coating? Part of he problem is that the outside layer of padded weapons, whatever is used to hold it all together, does not slide well. Ducktape is often used. Would it be possible to wrap padded weapons in wax paper? Would that make them slick?
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
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Jean Henri Chandler
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| Posted: Thu 26 Apr, 2007 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| Greg Coffman wrote: | The nylon wasters could be used without a gorget, joint protection, etc., provided they are not used at 100% full contact with the person. Thay could still be used with full content against other wasters. For full contact, additional protection either on the waster or on the person is required. Of course, the sparring that they do allow is at a much higher level of intent than wasters, blunts, or anything other than a padded weapon.
Making padden weapon with nylon cores is interresting. Shouldn't there be some way to chemically treat the outside of the padded weapon to make it slick...some kind of coating? Part of he problem is that the outside layer of padded weapons, whatever is used to hold it all together, does not slide well. Ducktape is often used. Would it be possible to wrap padded weapons in wax paper? Would that make them slick? |
I'm looking at something like the material used for those hard-surfaced mouse-pads. If you ever see one, rub two of them together on the 'hard' side, and you'll see what I mean, I think it culd be very promising. So far though the biggest ones I can find are 26" wide, and I can't find those available in lots of less than 250. At around $10 each thats a bit too rich for my blood.
What I'd really like to find is sheets of this stuff (or something similar) 30" - 36" long or so, they wouldn't need to be more than around 3" wide. I had found a brand-name but I can't find it right now. Vynex I think?
Jean
EDIT: I think this is the stuff:
http://www.bettermousepads.com/countermats/vynexpads.html
Only available in wholesale though apparently. 
Books and games on Medieval Europe Codex Integrum
Codex Guide to the Medieval Baltic Now available in print
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