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Justin Pasternak
Location: West Springfield, Massachusetts Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 174
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 Posted: Tue 28 Nov, 2006 5:35 pm Post subject: Invention of the Bayonet |
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When and where was the first bayonet created? From a few different books that I've read that the bayonet was invented in Bayonne, France in 1647? But in "Geroge Cameron Stones" book of Arms and Armour it says the bayonet was invented in Spain in about 1580. There's even a quote about bayonets from 1571 in French that translates to "One gives the name of bayonette as of long daggers which one plants at the end of the gun". Is there any evidence to support these facts?
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Tue 28 Nov, 2006 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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One has to keep in mind that the first bayonets were plug bayonets that would " plug " into the muzzle of the musket or archebuse. And these existed very early on. ( Early 16th century or even before, I think. )
With the plug bayonet you could not use the gun as a gun with the bayonet in use.
Some of these were even used for hunting weapons i believe: Shoot the game, put in the plug bayonet and go look for the wounded animal hiding in the bushes to finish it off. ( With wild boar you had a very dangerous wounded animal that really wanted to kill you with it's last breath. )
The socket bayonet was a mid 17th century innovation that permitted continued use as a firearm when the bayonet was in use.
Now I'm not sure if the bayonet was actually invented in Bayonne but may have become associated with that city at some time.
Not sure if the early plug bayonets were called that early on or if we retroactively applied that name to both the socket bayonets and the early plug ones.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Tue 28 Nov, 2006 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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Jean,
I have never heard of bayonets being pre 3rd quarter of teh 17th, this is specifically the plug ones. Curious if you know something I do not (which is highly possible). If you know of some let me know that would be interesting.
RPM
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 29 Nov, 2006 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| Randall Moffett wrote: | Jean,
I have never heard of bayonets being pre 3rd quarter of teh 17th, this is specifically the plug ones. Curious if you know something I do not (which is highly possible). If you know of some let me know that would be interesting.
RPM |
Ah, could be wrong about the dates of the first plug bayonets: I was under the impression that there were some very early ones but was going from memory ( faulty memory maybe.  )
At least I think the plug bayonets were used for at least a few decades or more before the socket bayonets.
From Edged Weapons, by Frederick Wilkinson, Doubleday & Company,Inc. Garden City, New York. 1970
page 165 quote: " There is some evidence to suggest that late in the 16th Century some kind of knife was occasionally fastened to hunting weapons to convert them into boar spears, but militarily they do not appear to have been used before about the first quarter of the 17th Century. The earliest reference so far traced occurs in the memoirs of a French commander who states that when he was in charge of forces in Belgium his soldiers did not carry swords, but that they had bayonets with handles one foot long and the blades as long as the handles. Most important of all, he states that the handles were adapted for placing in the barrels of the musket to defend themselves when attacked. These remarks refer to a campaign of 1642.
In 1660 Louis XIV issued a proclamation which stated that, owing to the large number of accidents as a result of bayonets and knives in the form of daggers being placed in the barrels of " fusils de chasses " or hunting guns, he was forced to forbid the practice. "
The first socket bayonets seem to be from the very late 17th to early 18th century according to the same book.
Anyway, I was writing from the top of my head in my first post from " vague memories " of the text of this book and got things wrong by 50 years to 100 years as far as early use. ( Assuming that the information in the book is correct ? )
By the way I bought this book in 1970 and I don't know if it's still in print, but it' s a very good reference with lots of good pictures.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Jean Thibodeau
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Wed 29 Nov, 2006 1:07 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Jean. That makes more sense. I was just wondering how I missed that. Thanks again,
Randall
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Wed 29 Nov, 2006 8:24 am Post subject: |
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In Daggers and Bayonets: A History, Logan Thompson has a nice discussion of the origin of bayonets, along with some nice pictures. He begins by explaining that in about 1580, only a few infantrymen were quipped with firearms--which would have been arquebus. Logan goes on to say that the musket was intoduced in about 1600, and was more accurate and had greater range, but was heavy and had a slower rate of fire. Arquebusiers and musketeers were vulnerable to attack after discharging their weapons, and were therefore protected by pikemen. Logan states that arquebusiers and musketeers really needed a more immediate form of defense against cavalry.
An interesting solution for musketeers (who needed a forked rest for their heavy weapons) came in the form of the musket rest bayonet (see second photo attachment). "It utilised the musket rest incorporated in which was an ingenious device comprising a long blade housed within the shaft. Surviving examples are extremely rare but there is a splendid Italian one, of about 1600, in th eWallace collection (acc No: A 1330). On this, a 28.5-in-long blade of stiff, diamond shape is housed on the hollow rest shaft. This is released by giving the shaft a sharpforward jerk causing the blade to spring out of the head through an opening otherwise concealed by a hinged cover. It is then firmly held in the extended forward position by a sprin-catch which engages a slot in the neck. This provided a useful pike-type weapon when wielded with two hands" (p. 60).
Logan goes on to discuss the possible hunting origins of the bayonet, as discussed earlier in the thread. He then explores the plug bayonet (emerging in the mid 1600s in France), the ring bayonet (also of the mid to late 1600s--see first photo), the common fixed socket bayonet, how the bayonet influenced warfare, and bayonets and sword bayonets of the 19th and 20th centuries.
George Neumann's Swords and Blades of the American Revolution is an excellent source for photos of plug bayonets and early socket bayonets.
Jonathan
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Ring Bayonet
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The bend in the blade is from the curve of the book page, not a bend in the blade itself. [ Download ]
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Justin Pasternak
Location: West Springfield, Massachusetts Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Wed 29 Nov, 2006 11:05 am Post subject: |
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What I was curious about is that if the bayonet was in use long before the 17th century and does anyone have or know of a type/form of bayonet that predates the 17th century.
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Wed 29 Nov, 2006 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin Pasternak wrote: | | What I was curious about is that if the bayonet was in use long before the 17th century and does anyone have or know of a type/form of bayonet that predates the 17th century. |
It sounds like there might be textual evidence for some type of bayonet before 1600, but I do not know of existing examples.
Jonathan
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 29 Nov, 2006 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| J.G. Hopkins wrote: | | Justin Pasternak wrote: | | What I was curious about is that if the bayonet was in use long before the 17th century and does anyone have or know of a type/form of bayonet that predates the 17th century. |
It sounds like there might be textual evidence for some type of bayonet before 1600, but I do not know of existing examples.
Jonathan |
The hunting use again may have been very early and would have been I suppose for use by men of means for custom weapons. Really hard to prove either way. ( There may be someone out there with good quality information about this ? )
With systematic military use early on there would be a lot more evidence out there if it was true: The historical record of battles of the 15th or 16th centuries would mention the use of bayonets if it was common.
Since pikes were still very much in use until at least the mid 17th century it's not too much to assume that bayonets hadn't replaced pikes as the main way to protect musketeers while reloading. ( Small scale use maybe starting early in the 17th century. )
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Martin Wilkinson
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| Posted: Thu 30 Nov, 2006 5:03 am Post subject: |
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My understanding of the invention of the bayonet was that a sergeant (not sure what army) just put his handle first into the barrel of his gun, and was rewarded.
i have no idea of the truth of this, i suspect it was 1630 ish and the guy was french.
I have no evidence for this, it's just something i heard.
"A bullet you see may go anywhere, but steel's, almost bound to go somewhere."
Schola Gladiatoria
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Thu 30 Nov, 2006 7:40 am Post subject: |
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An interesting tidbit from Neumann:
"The bayonet's origin as a weapon is unclear, but probably occurred in France in the early 1600's. Its name is attributed to the French iron and cutlery center of Bayonne--whose daggers were well known at that time as "bayonettes".
The first recorded military use of this new arm is generally accepted as DePuysegur's mention of French troops with plug bayonets in 1642 (whose blade and handles each measured one foot in length). The English purchsed several hundred from France in 1662, and by th e1690's plug bayonets had become standard issue for the British and most other European armies."
Here is what Anthony Carter has to say about the origins of the bayonet in World Bayonets 1800 to the Present:
"It is now accepted that the bayonet originated in the Basque region of northern Spain in th elate 16th century, 1570-80. During the same period the cutlers in Bayonne in southern France, also in the Basque region, were producing a regional form of dagger called a bayonnette. By th e1640s the hilts of these daggers were being altered to fit within the muzzles of firearms, and their local name remained with them as their use spread abroad.
The plug bayonet evolved from the Spanish boar spear which had a broad double-edged blade and a straight crossguard..."
Hopefully this information proves helpful and/or interesting.
Jonathan
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Jonathan Hopkins
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| Posted: Thu 30 Nov, 2006 8:12 am Post subject: |
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Here are two illustrations from Weapons by the Diagram Group:
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I believe this is the early bayonet to which Neumann referred as having a 1 foot handle and 1 foot blade. [ Download ]
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Here is another page from [i]Weapons[/i] that illustrates a range of styles of plug bayonets. [ Download ]
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Sat 07 Jul, 2007 3:41 am Post subject: |
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| Jonathan Hopkins wrote: | | In Daggers and Bayonets: A History, Logan Thompson has a nice discussion of the origin of bayonets, along with some nice pictures. He begins by explaining that in about 1580, only a few infantrymen were quipped with firearms--which would have been arquebus. Logan goes on to say that the musket was intoduced in about 1600, and was more accurate and had greater range, but was heavy and had a slower rate of fire. |
Aren't these dates generally a century too late? As I recall, the fully-developed arquebus was already present by 1500, while the musket appeared in the 1520s at the latest. Not to mention that by the 1580s firearms would have been very widespread among European armies!
This quibble doesn't really undermine his thesis on bayonets, though.
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This is a standard topic