I have read a bit about foreign mercenaries in the War of the Roses, specifically Burgundian gunners...but some other individuals as well...some dutch, french and spanish. Any one have any information on this?

Additionally, what is the likelihood of being able to do a foreign mercenary impression in the current UK war of the roses organisations?

At the very end of the Wars of the Roses, German landsknechts were present at the Battle of Stoke.

And a large proportion of Henry Tudor's troops in the Battle of Bosworth were French mercenaries provided to him by Louis IX. So if the organization regularly holds Bosworth events, you could certainly sneak in as a Frenchman or a Breton.

(Not to mention that it's not that far since the end of the Hundred Years' War and many of the nobles still certainly had connections in the Continent.)

The gunners would have been a small part out of all the mercinaries involved (200 of 2000 mercs I think at one point). They had men from Ireland pulled in, French pikes, German pikes and halbards. At this point some cannon's were still directed by foreign crews. The english did not need more misslemen usually, they could draw up thousands of longbows fairly quickly. What England was not strong on (and it still took quite a while to become so) were pikemen. The Bill and other poleaxes were a favorite hand to hand weapon. Some people have conjected Henry Tudor won Bosworth due to his foreign pikes... I do not know if I agree but clearly they helped.

I would look into some of the primary accounts. England has a number of writers during this time who you could look into. A book I found that is a good starting point for said sources is The Chronicles of the War of the Roses Edited by Elixebeth Hallam. Some numbers and deeds are clearly inflated in the primary accounts but you will get a good feel of it by reading them.

RPM

The French supplied mercenary forces to both Margaret of Anjou and Henry Tudor, Breton mercs fought at Mortimers Cross while Charles the Bold and his widow supplied the Yorkist with Flemish troops. The Lancastrians hirsed Scots troops in the 1460's and there probably were Scots in Henry Tudor's army as well. Indeed Scots, Bretons and French mercenaries made up the bulk of Henry's army at Bosworth. (Unless you count the Stanley's as part of his army from the start.)

Callign the mecernary band led by Martin Schwarz "landsknechts" might be streching things a bit since the term was barely in use at the time even in Germany.

Yeah Daniel's right.... I forgot some groups. I did not remember the scots off the top of my head.... how pathetic.

I agree using the term landsknechts for the german mercs perhaps not terribly accurate.

RPM

As always, sure, as long as you get it right. You get the odd foreigner at events. I wouldn't like to get the very, erm, 'distinctive' landsknechts kit together for 1 show a year, but there are good events on the continent you could go to. If you want any info on Burgundian gunners, look at the Company of Saint George website, they are without doubt the best 15c re-enactment group around.
http://www.companie-of-st-george.ch/index_1.phtml

RIchard,

Yeah good book. I tend to disagree with Gravett on 1200 handgunners. I will have to read it now as I have never read anything that indicates a force of handgunners that large in any battle of the WOTR's. It seems the likely source he used is refering to all the merc's in the force or perhaps a major Exaggeration (who knows as osprey does not use footnotes- very dangerous). It would almost indicate that only handgunners went of between 1200-1500 men came from burgunday as flanders was under burgundy at this point. Once more the importance of rereading primary sources over secondary regurg. On a second note it seems most sources indicate about 5,000- 6,000 men at Tewksbury under Edward IV. IT would seem hard to understand if over a fifth of them were gunners the get little written on the, whereas the bowmen, another commoner class do. I also doubt that more than 1/5 of his total army was mercinaries in tewksbury as he had had time to reconstruct his armies in england. When he first landed in England again perhaps but at this time it is clear he had burgundian merc (Francis Drake's History of York contains a good figure of them from now lost civic records, and as they stayed in the town it would make sense they knew how many men they had to billet) as he was entering Henry VI's England and was unsure of his loyal followers.

Anthony Goodman has written a great book on soldiers in the WOTR's. I would check that out of any secondary sources.

RPM

Something to look at as well would be the patent and close rolls from Henry VI, Edward IV's reign. The mercinaries likely would show up in it for pay and communications regarding them. I I have some time I will look into it. I do not know if they are standard at local libraries but they tend to be in university libraries that I have gone to in the past.

RPM

Richard,

I did like Haigh's book as well. I though it was very well done. I have read excepts from J. R. Lander's The Wars of the Roses for an article I wrote of warfare in the second half of the 15th. I sadly ran out of time and it was one of the last books so sadly I skimmed it more than read it. Since it has been brought to mind again that must mean I should read it. I tend to feel bad for Neville. Edward IV clearly broke trust with him as he did others and being as powerful as he was it was destined for a bad outcome for someone. It seems usurping a throne does that to people (Henry IV).

Yep period numbers are usually on the incredible side.

One thing to consider is that even today in England there is a north south divide..... not medieval divide but clewrly still exists. The northerners in England were like the lowlanders (often very similar) harsh, at times brutal and tough, just the terrain I guess.

Nice sources as well. I like the Croyland one. What a commentary.

I will dig up some info regarding this post.

RPM

Thanks for the input. I am currently reading Anthony Goodman, and he makes some interesting points. I am more interested in the individuals than the companies in general. Its easy enough to find basic information about large foreign companies but what about the rare individuals that find themselves in unusual circumstances?

To paraphrase him in his book "The War of the Roses, a Soldiers' Experience":

Page 114
Richard III seems to have been maintaining a foreign company under the spanish capitain salacar.

Rodigue de Lalaing, Pedro and Fulano de Guevara...captains under Warbeck , Kent 1495, Lalaing later turns up in Scotland with sixty germans serving James IV

page 91

John Paston in the defence of Caister Castle in 1469 had in his service 'Ducheman' Matthew, Raulyn Mundynet (born in France), William Peny and John Lofe (both from Calais)



The individuals interest me particularly because I am am a foreigner in the UK. I am a rather rare thing, American working for the Crown and I find a certain affinity for other individuals who in the past have been in similar situations.

In addition during living history events I like to talk to the public. When I was in the Sealed Knot the public always wanted to query my accent, easily enough explained by discussing early colonial america. I will not have that luxury at medieval events. I can not do anything remotely like an english or welsh accent of any description and my irish accent is rather comical. I can do a passing spanish accent...to non-spaniards anyway.

Additionally, I think the foreign participation in Medieval England whilst not of the same volume as todays multiculturalism is vastly under rated. For their to be riots against foreigns in London, as in 1381 and 1517 means there had to be enough foreigns to give offence rather than be just exotic curiousities.


In addition, from my own experiences in the military I have found units operating in foreign lands often end up with recruits from the area they operate.

Sir Edward Wydeville for example leading an English company in the Spanish campaign against the Muslim kingdom of Grenada. It does not seem unreasonable to think that perhaps some of the spanish had endeared themselves to the company and may have been used as replacements for men lost in battle.

Richard,

Glad you like Goodman's book as well. He has written others that are good as well.

Most of the foreigners in England seem to be merchants or shipmen. Mercinaries tend to be limited to cannoners and pikes in the second half of the 15th but of course you get numbers of the odd men at arms and such, especially when at home support might by limited. It seems they did not have production of firearms there until the next century with Henry VII or Henry VIII which perhaps is one reason they had to import cannoneers etc. as well. Many of the antiforeigner riots are caused by the fact the wealthy merchants from outside england were competition. The foreign merchants also were given many rights by the king wich made him rich but not his countrymen as he charged them customs at different rates and gave primamry rights to certain groups. If course there were others but soldiers would have been a small minority of them. If you'd like to read up on some of the riots the Southampton Record Series has a book on italian merchants 1200-1700 I think that is pretty comprehensive.

What group do you participate with now? I am also an american living in the U.K. but not working for the crown. I am at Southampton University.

RPM

Some past history of mercinaries in England would be something that perhaps influences the ones in the War of the roses.

After the conquest you get an influx of foreigners who had come to stay. For the next hundred plus year men from france and flanders are common in England. These men get used often by the kings for their power struggles. Henry II uses them and Richard and John. John though gets caught at it and signs the Magna Carta. In this letter he states the king will basically not hire foreign mercinaries to bring to england. Funny as many that John used were Gascons, essencially owned by the king of england. Mercinaries never completely stop entering the country but as other examples a king needs be careful when breaking the law or going against parliment (Edward III learns this the hard way, his father learned it even harder).
Edward III had a good number of men of Hainult. One reason was his entry to England was likely going to be a fight and Edward was married to the counts daughter. Some continue on as the queens knight's it seems. The Welsh and Irish are nominally in English overlordship.
The WOTR's is different though as major ties to the continent by marraige and politics (Burgundy-England-France) exist very string after the 100 years war. The mercenaries seem to usually be more of the core or landing party of the side they support as in Edward IV's return or Henry VII landing. When unsure who is to meet you with swords or smiles a few hundred soldeirs can help. In an even larger army every little bit helps. The larger the force the better.
Most civil wars have foreign help (interference). U.S. Civil War recieved help from a number of countries. The Burgundy-England -France triangle is likely the most important one in this era though.

RPM

I have not settled on a group yet. Wanted to get a better idea of what I want to do before I settle on a group.

It is hard to explain living outside one's nation of birth to someone who has not experienced it. I have been in the UK for seven years now and its just as challenging as it was the day I moved here. I really feel a connection with other professional men who made their living in the country of their choice rather than the one of their birth.

As soon as I speak to a member of the public my broad American accent just spoils the whole thing...at least thats been my experience in the past. I can do a passing italo-spanish accent, and am interested in medieval italy right now so looking at that angle.

I have had no problems really.most ask if we are from n. ireland???

RPM