I would appreciate your input and comments.
Attachment: 18.22 KB![Close-up of Haberkorn's dagger[1]..JPG](files/close-up_of_haberkorn_s_dagger_1_._509.jpg)
Richard Fay posted an interresting reply picture to Chad's request for Dagger info. which I have attached. It appears to me that ths knight (von Haberkorn) is waring a Scale Skirt rather than the usual maille one ......I can't imagine that its the protruding bottom of a whole Hauberk made of scale. The full lenfth image is posted in Chad's dagger post. I'm not saying that it IS a scale skirt.......but just that it looks like one to me. I have come across many wierd and wonderful armour pieces in effergies and I am sure they had experimentation with what worked best for each knight. Mabye they are protective/decorative discs riveted over the gambeson ? I've seen similar discs inside a maille collar made up of small shields facing alternately up and down.
I would appreciate your input and comments.
Attachment: 18.22 KB
I would appreciate your input and comments.
Attachment: 18.22 KBMerv, the cover art for " Medieval Craftsman, Armourers " by Mathias Pfaffenbicher is a late 15th century painting entitled "Armourers At Work" which has sitting off to the right by the forge a pair of breast and back plates with a scale skirt instead of faulds. I know i've seen another illustration with the same thing somewhere that escapes me just at the moment.
Hello all!
Hi Merv! :)
You beat me to the punch! I was getting ready to start a new thread on this topic, as per Chad's hint, but I was busy gathering images while you were posting.
Kunz Haberkorn (see full sized image below) is indeed wearing a scale skirt in place of a laminated fauld. This seems to have been a style peculiar to Central Europe. It appears every so often in art contemporary with Haberkorn's effigy.
If you look closely at the hem of the scale skirt, you can see that Haberkorn wears a typical mail haubergeon under the plate and scales. This definitely suggests that the scales are meant to be scales, not poorly executed mail. This effigy, along with another with a scale skirt, appears in the drawings in J. h. Hefner-Altemeck's Medieval Arms and Armor: A Pictorial Archive. The skirt is definitely drawn as scales. (The photo I found on the web wasn't as nice as the one of the effigy in Vesey Norman's Arms & Armour - there, the scales are much clearer. This knight's effigy, attributed to "Hans Haberkorn" in this case, also appears in a drawing in Paul Martin's Arms and Armour from the 9th to the 17th Century.)
The other knightly effigy depicted with a scale skirt in Hefner-Alteneck's book is that of Johann I, Count of Wertheim, who died in 1407. Here the scales are drawn shaded, as if they had some three-dimensional shape to them. Otherwise, the scale skirt is similar to that shown on the Haberkorn effigy, including the fact that the hem of the mail haubergeon or skirt of mail can be seen protruding from the hem of the skirt of scales.
There are also several depictions of skirts of scales in Medieval Costume, Armour and Weapons by Eduard Wagner, Zoroslava Drobna, and Jan Durdik. These images are based on primary art, mostly from various manuscripts.
The first example of a skirt of scales that I posted from the Wagner et al. work is that of a soldier from folio 38 of the Krumlov MS. Note that the soldier wears a scale collar as well. No mail is visible, but the skirt of scales is roughly similar to that on the Haberkorn effigy.
The next examples from the Wagner et al. work are also from the Krumlov MS. The larger figure is of a nobleman wearing a scale skirt from fol. 67, and the smaller figures are from the illumination of "The Slaying of Absalom", folio 58. It might be argued that the scale skirt was shown to suggests antiquity, but that argument doesn't hold true for the Haberkorn effigy. Since the Haberkorn effigy shows a different but contemporary style of armour used in the early fifteenth century, it seems logical to assume the same applies for the figures in the Krumlov manuscript.
The Osprey publication German Medieval Armies 1300-1500 by Christopher Gravett has a colour plate by Angus McBride showing a knightly warrior based on Haberkorn's effigy, complete with a skirt of scales. The caption for the plate states that these scale skirts were more commonly seen in the eastern half of the Holy Roman Empire. However, there is a detail of an Italian scale culet (rump guard) of the early 17th century, in the Royal Armouries Collection, in Claude Blair's European Armour Circa 1066 to Circa 1700.
I hope this was of interest! :)
Stay safe!
Attachment: 29.46 KB
Effigy of Kunz Haberkorn, died 1421.
Attachment: 34.52 KB
Attachment: 36.57 KB
Warriors with skirts of scales.
| Merv Cannon wrote: |
| It appears to me that ths knight (von Haberkorn) is waring a Scale Skirt rather than the usual maille one ......I can't imagine that its the protruding bottom of a whole Hauberk made of scale. The full lenfth image is posted in Chad's dagger post. I'm not saying that it IS a scale skirt.......but just that it looks like one to me. |
Hi Merv! :)
You beat me to the punch! I was getting ready to start a new thread on this topic, as per Chad's hint, but I was busy gathering images while you were posting.
Kunz Haberkorn (see full sized image below) is indeed wearing a scale skirt in place of a laminated fauld. This seems to have been a style peculiar to Central Europe. It appears every so often in art contemporary with Haberkorn's effigy.
If you look closely at the hem of the scale skirt, you can see that Haberkorn wears a typical mail haubergeon under the plate and scales. This definitely suggests that the scales are meant to be scales, not poorly executed mail. This effigy, along with another with a scale skirt, appears in the drawings in J. h. Hefner-Altemeck's Medieval Arms and Armor: A Pictorial Archive. The skirt is definitely drawn as scales. (The photo I found on the web wasn't as nice as the one of the effigy in Vesey Norman's Arms & Armour - there, the scales are much clearer. This knight's effigy, attributed to "Hans Haberkorn" in this case, also appears in a drawing in Paul Martin's Arms and Armour from the 9th to the 17th Century.)
The other knightly effigy depicted with a scale skirt in Hefner-Alteneck's book is that of Johann I, Count of Wertheim, who died in 1407. Here the scales are drawn shaded, as if they had some three-dimensional shape to them. Otherwise, the scale skirt is similar to that shown on the Haberkorn effigy, including the fact that the hem of the mail haubergeon or skirt of mail can be seen protruding from the hem of the skirt of scales.
There are also several depictions of skirts of scales in Medieval Costume, Armour and Weapons by Eduard Wagner, Zoroslava Drobna, and Jan Durdik. These images are based on primary art, mostly from various manuscripts.
The first example of a skirt of scales that I posted from the Wagner et al. work is that of a soldier from folio 38 of the Krumlov MS. Note that the soldier wears a scale collar as well. No mail is visible, but the skirt of scales is roughly similar to that on the Haberkorn effigy.
The next examples from the Wagner et al. work are also from the Krumlov MS. The larger figure is of a nobleman wearing a scale skirt from fol. 67, and the smaller figures are from the illumination of "The Slaying of Absalom", folio 58. It might be argued that the scale skirt was shown to suggests antiquity, but that argument doesn't hold true for the Haberkorn effigy. Since the Haberkorn effigy shows a different but contemporary style of armour used in the early fifteenth century, it seems logical to assume the same applies for the figures in the Krumlov manuscript.
The Osprey publication German Medieval Armies 1300-1500 by Christopher Gravett has a colour plate by Angus McBride showing a knightly warrior based on Haberkorn's effigy, complete with a skirt of scales. The caption for the plate states that these scale skirts were more commonly seen in the eastern half of the Holy Roman Empire. However, there is a detail of an Italian scale culet (rump guard) of the early 17th century, in the Royal Armouries Collection, in Claude Blair's European Armour Circa 1066 to Circa 1700.
I hope this was of interest! :)
Stay safe!
Attachment: 29.46 KBEffigy of Kunz Haberkorn, died 1421.
Attachment: 34.52 KB Attachment: 36.57 KBWarriors with skirts of scales.
What we don't know is whether these scale faulds are actually attached to the breastplates in question. There are a number of pictures that show the faulds being worn by themselves, as in the ones worn over quilted Lentners (or jupons, or whatever party you belong to when it comes to naming these garments) in the picture below.
Attachment: 65.57 KB
Attachment: 65.57 KB| Hugh Knight wrote: |
| What we don't know is whether these scale faulds are actually attached to the breastplates in question. There are a number of pictures that show the faulds being worn by themselves, as in the ones worn over quilted Lentners (or jupons, or whatever party you belong to when it comes to naming these garments) in the picture below. |
I think some of the drawings from the Wagner et al. work suggest strongly that the skirt of scales wasn't attached to the breastplate. It does appear, rather, to be attached to a belt, and fastened in that fashion.
Nice image, by the way!
Hello all!
I found more period images of possible scale skirts. It does seem to be an option for use in place of a laminated fauld. I couldn't find most of these images on-line, so you'll have to bear with my descriptions.
There are a few of these shown in illuminations from various manuscripts in Medieval Warfare in Manuscripts by Pamela Porter. All images are from the British Library, but many seem to be absent from their on-line image library.
There are a variety of configurations shown. One image, from King's MS 5, fol. 7, circa 1405, shows gilded rectangular scales, complete with rivets, shown worn beneath some sort of garment. One row of these scales shows from beneath the hem of the upper garment.
Another image from the same book, this time from Cotton MS Nero E ii, part 1, folio 124, circa 1415, shows a warrior with a scale skirt of rectangular scales worn beneath a jupon split up the side. The scales are visible at the split. They are coloured the same as the rest of the knight's plate armour. This time, a mail skirt or the skirt of a mail haubergeon is visible at the hem of the skirt of scales. This figure is otherwise in fairly conventional western armour, including a belt with dangling bells that was especially popular in Germany (such a belt is shown on the effigy of Ludwig of Hutten from about the same date).
Another possible scale skirt is shown worn by a knight from the early fifteenth century manuscript, Harley MS 4431, folio 135. This time it could be a laminated fauld, but there are occasional lines within the lames suggesting that they weren't solid lames, but something like large scales. This is one interpretation anyway. (See image below.)
There is also an interesting example that may be a scale skirt depicted on the Angers tapestry made between 1375 and 1390. In the scene of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, one of the horsemen wears some sort of scale garment beneath a mail haubergeon. One row of scales can be seen clearly beneath the hem of the mail shirt, and another is partially visible. Each scale has a rivet in its centre. In French Armies of the Hundred Years War, David Nicolle states that the scale garment is a brigandine cuirass. However, it just may be a skirt of scales. It could be an alternate possibility, anyway.
The problem with interpreting period art is that it's sometimes hard to know what is real and what is fanciful. Perhaps many of these scale skirts, or possible scale skirts, are fanciful. However, since similar armour was used in Central Europe, these other examples may depict an actual armour.
Stay safe!
Attachment: 39.28 KB
Knight from Harley MS 4431, folio 135.
Copyright © The British Library Board.
I found more period images of possible scale skirts. It does seem to be an option for use in place of a laminated fauld. I couldn't find most of these images on-line, so you'll have to bear with my descriptions.
There are a few of these shown in illuminations from various manuscripts in Medieval Warfare in Manuscripts by Pamela Porter. All images are from the British Library, but many seem to be absent from their on-line image library.
There are a variety of configurations shown. One image, from King's MS 5, fol. 7, circa 1405, shows gilded rectangular scales, complete with rivets, shown worn beneath some sort of garment. One row of these scales shows from beneath the hem of the upper garment.
Another image from the same book, this time from Cotton MS Nero E ii, part 1, folio 124, circa 1415, shows a warrior with a scale skirt of rectangular scales worn beneath a jupon split up the side. The scales are visible at the split. They are coloured the same as the rest of the knight's plate armour. This time, a mail skirt or the skirt of a mail haubergeon is visible at the hem of the skirt of scales. This figure is otherwise in fairly conventional western armour, including a belt with dangling bells that was especially popular in Germany (such a belt is shown on the effigy of Ludwig of Hutten from about the same date).
Another possible scale skirt is shown worn by a knight from the early fifteenth century manuscript, Harley MS 4431, folio 135. This time it could be a laminated fauld, but there are occasional lines within the lames suggesting that they weren't solid lames, but something like large scales. This is one interpretation anyway. (See image below.)
There is also an interesting example that may be a scale skirt depicted on the Angers tapestry made between 1375 and 1390. In the scene of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, one of the horsemen wears some sort of scale garment beneath a mail haubergeon. One row of scales can be seen clearly beneath the hem of the mail shirt, and another is partially visible. Each scale has a rivet in its centre. In French Armies of the Hundred Years War, David Nicolle states that the scale garment is a brigandine cuirass. However, it just may be a skirt of scales. It could be an alternate possibility, anyway.
The problem with interpreting period art is that it's sometimes hard to know what is real and what is fanciful. Perhaps many of these scale skirts, or possible scale skirts, are fanciful. However, since similar armour was used in Central Europe, these other examples may depict an actual armour.
Stay safe!
Attachment: 39.28 KBKnight from Harley MS 4431, folio 135.
Copyright © The British Library Board.
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