Good day to you all. I'm obviously a newbie (both to the board and ancient arms in general) so please forgive me if either this has been asked before, or is a silly question.
I wanted to inquire about swords with leaf-shaped blades. I know they were at least somewhat prevalent in europe from the Hallstatt through the La Tene periods, and then seemed (?) to die out afterwards. I've seen, online, both bronze and iron swords of this style. Anyway, my questions are these:
1. Was this the blade-style of choice of the Celts of Western Europe? A lot of authorites on the subject seem reluctant to associate either La Tene or Hallstatt culture with the Celts, but as far as I can tell if they are not one and the same, they at least overlap.
2. What were the time periods that these leaf shape blades were most widely used?
3. Could you describe the general size of a sword with a leaf shaped blade? Were they generally shortswords or long swords?
4. What sort of fighting style was used by a warrior wielding one? Were these primarily slashing swords or stabbing swords or both? It would seem to me that they could be used for both - because of the leaf shape they seem better suited to slashing (as a scimitar would seem superior in that respect to a straight blade, which would seem to hack rather than slash) than a straight blade since the blade was somewhat curved, and seeing as how the blade tapered to (what seems to me to be) a sharp point, they seem ideal for stabbing as well.
5. What would the advantage, in your opinions, of a leaf-shaped bladed sword be? The aforementioned ability to slash and thrust?
6. What would the disadvantage be? Are they weaker because of the thinner middle? More unwieldy in battle?
7. And this is related, I suppose, to 6 - why did they go out of style? Was it a flaw in design, or aesthetics, or the innate difficulty in forging a sword with such curves?
8. Who used this sword? What peoples? (I'm concerned for the most part with the peoples of Europe)
Again - thank you all in advance. Along with whatever answers and insight you can provide, any links that might further illuminate me on the subject will also be GREATLY appreciated.
PS
I grew up in Worcester MA, USA - home of Higgins Armoury. Thought some of you might be familiar with the institution.
Thanks.
Try this thread for starters.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...eaf+blades
Also, the search function (be sure to use the one under forums if you want to find threads) is a great place to find answers to similar questions that people have asked.
When using the search function I find that I need to make sure the radio button saying to "search for all terms" is checked. Otherwise all I get is a list of the latest posted topics, not what I was looking for.
Hope this helps,
Dan
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...eaf+blades
Also, the search function (be sure to use the one under forums if you want to find threads) is a great place to find answers to similar questions that people have asked.
When using the search function I find that I need to make sure the radio button saying to "search for all terms" is checked. Otherwise all I get is a list of the latest posted topics, not what I was looking for.
Hope this helps,
Dan
| Victor Crowne wrote: |
| Good day to you all. I'm obviously a newbie (both to the board and ancient arms in general) so please forgive me if either this has been asked before, or is a silly question.
I wanted to inquire about swords with leaf-shaped blades. I know they were at least somewhat prevalent in europe from the Hallstatt through the La Tene periods, and then seemed (?) to die out afterwards. I've seen, online, both bronze and iron swords of this style. Anyway, my questions are these: 1. Was this the blade-style of choice of the Celts of Western Europe? A lot of authorites on the subject seem reluctant to associate either La Tene or Hallstatt culture with the Celts, but as far as I can tell if they are not one and the same, they at least overlap. |
| Quote: |
| 2. What were the time periods that these leaf shape blades were most widely used? |
The first leafshaped blades appeared in the early bronze age, roughly 1700BC. They became really common roughly 1400BC, and disappeared at the end of the Hallstatt, when swords disappeared alltogether. On the continent, from time to time straight-bladed swords have also been used either alongside or instead of leafshaped bladed. In the UK and Ireland, outside of bronze rapiers, only leafbladed swords have been used.
| Quote: |
| 3. Could you describe the general size of a sword with a leaf shaped blade? Were they generally shortswords or long swords? |
| Quote: |
| 4. What sort of fighting style was used by a warrior wielding one? Were these primarily slashing swords or stabbing swords or both? |
| Quote: |
| It would seem to me that they could be used for both - because of the leaf shape they seem better suited to slashing (as a scimitar would seem superior in that respect to a straight blade, which would seem to hack rather than slash) than a straight blade since the blade was somewhat curved |
| Quote: |
| 5. What would the advantage, in your opinions, of a leaf-shaped bladed sword be? The aforementioned ability to slash and thrust? |
| Quote: |
| 6. What would the disadvantage be? Are they weaker because of the thinner middle? More unwieldy in battle? |
| Quote: |
| 7. And this is related, I suppose, to 6 - why did they go out of style? Was it a flaw in design, or aesthetics, or the innate difficulty in forging a sword with such curves? |
They went out of style as swords went out of style at the end of the Hallstatt period. So hundreds of years of sword making experience was simply forgotten. That and the fact that swords became longer in later periods prevented the leafshape from being reinvented, as it has little effect on longer swords.
| Quote: |
| 8. Who used this sword? What peoples? (I'm concerned for the most part with the peoples of Europe) |
| Jeroen Zuiderwijk wrote: |
| I wouldn't use the term Celts at all, as not even archeologists can figure out who were Celts and who weren't (it's determined by the language they spoke, and since it's prehistoric, we don't have much insight in that). But leafblades have been used throughout the whole of Europe. |
I don't understand or condone this recent fashion of refusing to associate Celtic culture with Hallstadt or La Tene artifacts, or to even use the term 'Celt' or agknowledge the existence of such a people. It is based on a "purist" approach which refuses to credit the contemporary (i.e. Roman and Greek) literary sources with any veracity at all. I think this is obviously throwing the baby out with the bath-water. We know all primary literary sources have some bias, but it's worth making the effort to guage and compensate for their bias as much as possible. Using the evaluation of material culture and biological evidence alone is almost as potentially misleading as relying solely on the testimony of Lucan and Strabo and Tacitus and Caesar. IMO a wiser approach is to balance the archeologial evidence with the evidence on coins, the names of towns and rivers, surviving insular legends (as of the Irish, Welsh, Scotts, Brittany, Galicia etc. etc.)
To me it's obvious that yes there was such a thing as Celtic culture which existed across a huge swathe of Europe and beyond, and this CAN be seen through the eyes of the ancients.
[ Linked Image ]
Compare the famous statue of 'The Dying Gaul' from Pergammon, (the original) commissioned to celibrate a Greek tyrants victory over the "Gallatians" in 230 BC in what is now Turkey, to the Celts who sacked rome in 300 BC, the Gauls described by Julius Ceasar in 50 BC,or those encountered in the British Isles as described in by Tacitus in the Agricola 150 years later in 98 AD. Both the ancient testimony and the material culture of these people as discovered by archeology confirms that there was a linked culture, how far we can go beyond that is for future historians to determine.
For a balanced approach to Celtic history like this I reccomend the works of Barry Cunliffe. For a more far out or Celtiphile perspective Peter Barresford Ellis.
| Quote: |
| The first leafshaped blades appeared in the early bronze age, roughly 1700BC. They became really common roughly 1400BC, and disappeared at the end of the Hallstatt, when swords disappeared alltogether. |
Huh? Am I reading this correcrtly? Swords disappeared altogether at the end of the Hallstatt? Most Historians (Cunliffe in a recent book I just finished for example) date Hallstatt from around 1200 - 500 BC, corresponding to the early Iron Age. Hallstatt is further subdivided into eras which relate primarily to changes in material culture, including swords. La Tene, the next major (late iron age) wave of material culture is according to every source I know essentially an off-shoot of Hallstatt starting no later than 450 BC, and continuing until ROman disruption in the 1st Century BC.
Furthermore, La Tene sites had even more (and arguably more sophisticted) swords than Hallstatt sites did. Hundreds have been recovered. So I reeally don't know what is meant by swords disappearing alltogether...?
| Quote: |
| Both. Only with the Mindelheim swords (Hallstatt) it seems that thrusting got out of fashion. |
IIRC some LaTene swords lacked points, or were even squared off...
| Quote: |
|
They went out of style as swords went out of style at the end of the Hallstatt period. So hundreds of years of sword making experience was simply forgotten. |
Say what? When did this happen?
Jean
Certainly Celtic-speaking groups were well-documented in classical times, but in the prehistoric period we have no way of positively linking any linguistic group to any given archaeological site or complex. No writing, no record of the language the folks used . . . . .
But it's a good bet that the Celtic-speakers were there in Europe, right along with Germanic-speakers and a probably a slew of others. (grin)
But it's a good bet that the Celtic-speakers were there in Europe, right along with Germanic-speakers and a probably a slew of others. (grin)
| Quote: |
| So I reeally don't know what is meant by swords disappearing alltogether...?
|
Between Hallstatt C and D the swords was gone and the sign of the "rich men" was the dagger. There was some "long daggers" (or short swords), but the common noble weapon for the men after 40 was the dagger.
First - I apologize for not using the search function right off. After I posted this I did use it and had some of the questions I asked answered to a degree. Secondly, thanks to everyone who responded.
Would also like to say that I'm with Jean vis a vis the confusion about swords "disappearing altogether" at any point in history. I don't see how that could possibly be true. Do you mean they went out of fashion as a grave good?
Would also like to say that I'm with Jean vis a vis the confusion about swords "disappearing altogether" at any point in history. I don't see how that could possibly be true. Do you mean they went out of fashion as a grave good?
| Jean Henri Chandler wrote: | ||
I don't understand or condone this recent fashion of refusing to associate Celtic culture with Hallstadt or La Tene artifacts, or to even use the term 'Celt' or agknowledge the existence of such a people. |
| Quote: |
| Huh? Am I reading this correcrtly? Swords disappeared altogether at the end of the Hallstatt? |
| Quote: |
| Furthermore, La Tene sites had even more (and arguably more sophisticted) |
| Quote: |
| Huh? Am I reading this correcrtly? Swords disappeared altogether at the end of the Hallstatt? |
| Quote: |
| Furthermore, La Tene sites had even more (and arguably more sophisticted) |
Interesting as I wasn't aware of this at all ? Doesn't mean that people were less well armed maybe as I would think that the spear was the main battle weapon in combination with the shield? How about the use of the axe or mace as THE secondary weapon during those two centuries of no or extremely rare use of swords. ( I qualify this because it might be possible that some very limited sword use by individuals i.e. family heirloom or tradition ? )
Obviously I know little of this period and I am only asking questions and I'm just a bit wary of absolutes. ( There is a difference between certainty about sword use or non use and very strong evidence. )
I do think that a general absence of sword use during a period or place can be supported by the absence of any indication of sword use for the period and even more when swords are easily proven to be common before and after this 200 year period: Just seems that the evidence of something different during this period would be indicated by comparative statistics.
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | ||||||||
|
What two hundred year period? Do you have any references? I've never heard of the sword disappearing for centuries and then reappearing. If a sword disappeared for that long, logic dictates that it had to then be literally reinvented. It just sounds highly unlikely that after centuries - millenia, really - the sword would disappear and in its place people would fight with... knives. And then poof someone invented the sword - again?
Also - I should assume you're speaking specifically of in Europe, correct?
| Quote: |
| What two hundred year period? Do you have any references? |
From Hallstatt D1 to Latène A (630 - 450 BC). Nobody knows, why the sword disappear and the dagger comes in trend, but there are more daggers in the same horizon then swords was! More rich people? New trends? Changing social structures?
The dagger- trend comes from the etruscans, strong trading-partners of the westhallstatt society.
| Quote: |
| It just sounds highly unlikely that after centuries - millenia, really - the sword would disappear and in its place people would fight with... knives. |
Most of this daggers was unable as weapon! They was more signs, like an portepee, then a close combat weapon. Only a handfull dagger would be usefull for a fight!
The general opinion is, that the hallstatt period was either peaceful then an era of war. Good tradings, tough social elites, good agricultural working,....(note the nearly "baroque" style of the late hallstatt period)
| Quote: |
| And then poof someone invented the sword - again? |
In the very late hallstatt period comes a new nation from the east (Altai, Blacksea-area): The scythians.
Note the designs of them, the weaponry (especially the akinakes), the horsegear - and the take a look to the finds of the early latène period!
Just to clarify then - we are saying that in the areas of Europe where the Hallstatt and La Tene cultures dominated, the sword disappeared for a certain period time in the mid first millenium, BC, correct? We are obviously not including ancient Greece in the hypothesized two-century sword drought.
Yes - we are speaking from the area from southeast France to south Bavaria with northern border in the middle of Thuringia and with the middle of Switzerland as border in the south.
That was in late hallstatt dagger-turf.
That was in late hallstatt dagger-turf.
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