I have been looking at a couple of antique swords which I may or may not acquire from a private collector, and wondered if people's collective knowledge could help me with some makers' marks. I am happy with the authenticity of the items but wondered if anyone had more info on these blade makers or any text book references for them.

Number one. English backsword with half-basket hilt and S-quillons, probably early 17th century but I think it might be as late as 1640. Solingen blade , fuller-marked 'Me Fecit Klemens Kevller (second ''L'' may be an 'i' but I don't think so) Solingen'. I've not heard of this maker. May not be noteworthy. It's a good piece though.


Number two. Simple swept hilt rapier, probably around 1610-1625, swept bars below cross guard, triple bar knuckle bow, fullered lozenge section blade, marked ' Wilhelm Wirsserch, Solingen' . I've seen another rapier with this mark in an auction catalogue from 1979 and may be able to get some info from a friend in the trade but am having difficulty digging up more examples or info. Again may not be a maker of any great note but if anyone recalls seeing a reference, I would love to know.

Any help would be great. If no one's seen these two characters, not to worry. I won't hold anyone responsible for accuracy of any information either !

Daniel

Thanks to Bill Goodwin for the PM on this re your friend's info materials. I have replied to you but couldn't tell whether it had gone through as access to the site has been a bit iffy.

Got it....both of them.....let ya' know as soon as I know something.

Bill

Daniel,

Here's what my freind (who is strangely also named Will Goodwin) came up with.

He found no Klemens but did find a Clemens Keller / Solingen 1820-1860

also found a Clemens Keuller the Elder (also spelled Koller) 1580-1620
He said that original swords of this period may have several different spellings of a makers name.

Hope this was helpful

Bill

Excellent work Bill, and many thanks to you and your friend (express my thanks to him please). This corresponds exactly with what my arms & armour auction house friend came up with . The 'V' is a 'U' and is the latter of your two suggestions, Kueller of Solingen, 1575-1625 he had as dates. My friend thinks this might be the son or apprentice as on the few examples he can find the name Clemens is spelt with a K rather than a C after 1610-1620 whereas previously it was spelt with a C. There was also a change to double fullered blades at the same time the letter changed. This blade is double fullered. And the script style is a match for the pieces he had records for. That potentially makes it a very early basket backsword of its type.

Still searching for further examplesof our friend Mr Wirsserch. Was going to chat to a museum curator friend about it but unfortunately our political environment has raised its head again - bomb on a bus in Hackney, bombs in three tube stations, armed police running into the hospital at Euston, gun fire heard at Warren St station - uncertain times we do live in.


I totally agree with your friend on spellings, it can be a tricky job judging whether something is a variant spelling by the same maker (German smiths re-spelled their names when coming to England or Scotland), an apprentice or son, or a generic quality term like Andrea Ferrara (in its many forms) or just a fake mark. The provenance of these pieces was never in doubt though, just info on the maker required.

Many thanks again ( and if you find Mr Wirsserch will be delighted !)


Daniel

Daniel,

More than happy to help. I'll pass along your sentiments and if he's able to turn anything up on Wilhelm....your be the first to know. To, this is my favorite time period 17th.c and my repro-collection revolves around that especially Mortuary's. If you happen to pick up the 1/2 basket, backsword, I'd be quite chuffed to see photos'.
Cheers,

Bill

An interesting thread, Gents... it's kind of fun to watch research and discussion of this sort.

Daniel, if you do acquire these pieces, I'd probably do backflips for some good pictures. As much as I love all of these reproductions, there's something amazing about a true period piece. This pair seems like it could be quite interesting to see.

Oh, and please keep your head down and your wits sharp. It is something, this world we live in, isn't it?

From "European Swords & Daggers in the Tower of London", A.R. Dufty, 1974.

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Neat piece there, Mac! Nasty intentions, but perfectly suited for the task, eh?

Looks messed up as a football bat, compared to battlefield pieces of the day.

I really need to add some of these books to my library, too... thanks for posting the reference for us!

Your welcome, Aaron !

I should have included the following :

Plate 12c : inventory # IX-35, length - 100.6 cms

I rescanned the image, to enlarge the hilt, so we could see the inscription a little clearer ! Mac

Nice addition to the info from Mr MacDonald there (and beautiful basket hilt you just acquired by the way ) . Interesting branch of the family business - executioner's swords. I know it's often said but this community is so good for this sort of stuff. I'm no slouch on 17th century antique weapons myself and you guys are keeping pace with friends from reputable auction houses and museums here. I feel like I can just sit back and have a beer and let you do all the work (only kidding).

And Aaron, yes, there is a fascinating aura to antique pieces. At the Park Lane Antique Arms & Armour Fair last year there was this beautiful Italian 17th century rapier (unfortunately a tad outside my budget at $16,000 !!!) but what captivated me was not only was it beautifully made decoratively, but picking it up the balance was superb, the blade was a non-edged, pierced, light-weight point fencing duelling blade. This sword was made to walk the walk not just talk the talk as some fop's accessory, and looking at the cup hilt there were distinct marks of point contact, the sort of marks only another rapier or small-sword could make (it was this sword that first made me think of the thread before about catching rapier points in pierced guards that you responded to). And it makes you think... this thing was carried on a morning trip to some appointed field or late night ally behind an ale house and you wonder who won ? Was this the blade that won the day or was it lying in the grass as its owner regretted his ill-chosen words of the previous night ? So much history.

And, yes, everyone has to keep their head down in London a bit lately.

Daniel

Your comments about original pieces is very true. find myself more & more intriqued each time I get around Will G. and another antique collector aquintance. They are always talking of the lure ,for them in mainly dealing with originals ,as to the questions of who owned them and what great things they've (the swords)seen and stories they could tell. Cool stuff. That's one reason myArmoury is a blessing to many,in that, everyone is so willing to freely share their knowledge and the resourses available to them.

Great stuff there Mac!

Bill

If I do acquire either of these pieces, photos will be posted to you both from all angles I promise. Unfortunately acquisition is by no means in the bag yet. I know there are two European dealers and two European private collectors interested. The dealers don't bother me as they work on a commercial basis. The private collectors, however, are what my auction house friend calls 'Marianas' after the Mariana Trench in the ocean. I.E. their pockets are so deep money isn't an issue. They simply decide whether an item is interesting or fills a gap in their collection and if it does, they acquire. Whatever you offer they'll just keep upping by 15% until they blow you out of the water. Can't compete. And they will have paid some helper to get the same makers' info we got today. Sufficiently interesting for them to want to acquire I fear. I can pay the open market value for both items but can't enter any kind of bidding war with these chaps. I would love to show you photos of the basket hilt though, Bill. You'd be interested. It's of that period before true basket-hilts and mortuaries came into being and whilst possible Venetian influences were being felt and a bit of swept hilts sticking in the armourer's mind. It's similar to Figure 80 A page 176 on EO's European Weapons and Armour but with more sweep and more plate in-fill.



Aaron, don't get me wrong, I'm not spilling $16,000 here ! That was a very special item I was talking about. Actually antique sword collecting isn't as expensive as some people might think. If you want to collect medieval swords, forget it unless you're very, very rich. The examples on the market just aren't there and the ones that are are prohibitively expensive. But if you're interested in small-swords, a good 18th century silver or steel hilted English or french small-sword wouldn't cost much more(in fact possibly less than) than an Albion Museum Line piecewith scabbard. 18th to 19th century military swords ditto. 17th century gets more pricey due to the scarecity of pieces but if a person can buy several Albion swords or a couple of really good custom swords of the likes of Mr MacDonald's fine new basket hilt or other makers who produce fine quality custom swords, perhaps with a custom scabbard bought too, then a couple of those will probably meet the purchase price of a decent 17th century rapier. At least in Europe, I don't know US market prices for antiques.

The main issue with antique purchases is give yourself a lot of time with your cheque-book firmly tied down. Time to visit a lot of auctions and sales and trawl through countless catalogues until you ar confident you are not going to get taken for a ride.



Daniel

Ouch. Competing with the "I stink of money" crowd in a bidding war is definitely a hard way to go. Still, though, it would be nice to see this work for you if it's what you want. If those pics do come to be, I'd definitely be both interested and greatful.

Daniel Parry wrote:

Aaron, don't get me wrong, I'm not spilling $16,000 here ! That was a very special item I was talking about. Actually antique sword collecting isn't as expensive as some people might think. The main issue with antique purchases is give yourself a lot of time with your cheque-book firmly tied down. Time to visit a lot of auctions and sales and trawl through countless catalogues until you ar confident you are not going to get taken for a ride.

Sorry to have mislead, there... could be interpreted 2 ways equally. Reread what I posted and change the inflection... if I had $16k, as nice as that piece was, I'd have a few others - a small museum - in my house instead with the same cash. We're on the same page. Still, though, if I had Marianas-style cash, I'd have picked it up, too, probably. It's all relative. I haven't ever been in a position to go to seriously look at antique pieces, be it auctions, catalogs, or whatever. Perhaps one day. Despite what my current collection says about me (nearly exclusively high medieval or earlier), I'd actually love to have a nicely preserved antique smallsword or rapier.

Not misleading at all, Aaron. I understand exactly what you mean and agree. It is all relative. And choices are up to the individual.



But to get you and Bill into the bug........... Find out when and where the nearest antique A&A fair is near you (don't bother with locals just the big national fairs) and take a trip. See how it compares with more modern replica or knife blade shows. If you are not interested then you'll walk away. But I have a feeling that after passing a score of stalls packed with goodies from all centuries and at all prices you will acquire an interest.



Daniel

I know that there are several big A & A faires in and around London and the next trip across the pond we make to visit the wife's relatives, I was going to try plan the trip so as to catch one. Have heard lots about them. At the gathering I'm hosting this Sat., there will be quite a few antique blades there for the handling (via Will & Gary). Nothing like cutting with a original piece that hasn't been sharpened in 150 - 200 years and still is lethal.

Bill

Bill

Yes , the London International and the Park Lane are goodies. There are also various dealers scattered around.

If you do come accross the pond, be sure to drop me a line because if it fits with a big fair I'm more than happy to go with you.



Even if it doesn't match dates, drop me a line and we can meet up for a pint or some dinner and let the wives prowl Bond St at their will (by the way the Wallace collllection is right behind one of the biggest shoe and dress boutique streets in London - explains our erudite knowledge of rapiers)


Take Care


DANIEL

Oh, man... you guys are killing me.

Bill, if I were still up in Maryland, I'd have to make the trek down. I'm just living in the wrong part of the country for this.

I'm not aware of any event worthwhile that is remotely in my neighborhood. I believe there is a combined custom/antique show in Vegas, though dates and my ability to travel that far are quite unknown at this time. I'm definitely going to keep my eyes and ears open for anything worthwhile coming up. My interest in these fine antiques has always been there. My funds haven't... but that seems to be slowly changing. I'm almost scared to go to one of those events... no doubt I'd come out happily busted-broke.

I do so miss the proximity to such neat history... :\ One of these days...

Aaron,

You'd be most welcome anytime. Maybe next year we'll meet up at the ATL Blade-Show, I do mean to go next year since missing this time.

Daniel,

A meet-up across the pond would be grand and the invite for a proper pint...well... I'm always open for that. My friend Will G. is still digging for info. on Wilhelm Werssech.

Bill