myArmoury.com - Showa period Gendaito with Horimono & Semi civil mounts.

Posts: 68 Location: UK

Sat 11 Jun, 2005 2:31 pm

Showa period Gendaito with Horimono & Semi civil mounts.

This may be of passing interest to those interested iin militaria and Jaapanese swords.

An officer in the Japanese army could customise his sword,add a Mon,Old or new made civil mounts. Carry a family blade that may date from the 19th or 13th century.
In this case the officer commissioned both blade and semi military kosherei. The blade,signed 'SadaTsugu' and dated from the war period, also has a Bonji & Dragon horimono.The Bonji is quite apt as it Translates roughly as "KILL THE ENEMY".

All mounts carry on the Dragon theme apart from the Menuki which have the Mon of the Matsudaira which may well have been the officers family or clan. The saya althoughi civil style does not have a kurikata and has the reminants of a Gunto field combat cover.

I am sure most of you will know these facts, for those new to Japanese Military swords.......................

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G. Scott H.

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Posts: 410 Location: Arizona, USA

Sat 11 Jun, 2005 5:12 pm

Very nice. A couple of questions though: in the third photo down, is the second object from the left a black (perphaps iron?) habaki? In the bottom photo, a typical brass habaki is shown, this is causing me some confusion (not terribly hard to do :eek: :lol: ). Second, what material(s) is the tsuba made from? :)

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Roy Lindus

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Posts: 68 Location: UK

Sat 11 Jun, 2005 11:24 pm

G. Scott H. wrote:

Very nice. A couple of questions though: in the third photo down, is the second object from the left a black (perphaps iron?) habaki? In the bottom photo, a typical brass habaki is shown, this is causing me some confusion (not terribly hard to do :eek: :lol: ). Second, what material(s) is the tsuba made from? :)

In the photo showing the sword mounted with its Saya the Habaki had been cleaned. Over time Shakudo can and will repatenate which this seem to have done...

The Tsuba is of cast gilded brass, we may now consider this "Cheap" even nasty but this isa thought based on our liking for old Tsuba. I would suggest that this officer probably spent several months salary on this customized sword. Some time ago I read that a Silver Mon that we see on Gunto swords , would at that time equated to one month of a junior officers income, we can more appreciate this guys effort. :)

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G. Scott H.

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Posts: 410 Location: Arizona, USA

Sun 12 Jun, 2005 12:10 am

Roy Lindus wrote:

In the photo showing the sword mounted with its Saya the Habaki had been cleaned. Over time Shakudo can and will repatenate which this seem to have done...

Amazing what a little Brasso and a soft cloth will do. :) Thanks for the clarification.

Roy Lindus wrote:

The Tsuba is of cast gilded brass, we may now consider this "Cheap" even nasty but this isa thought based on our liking for old Tsuba.

Well, cast brass certainly isn't the most durable tsuba material ever, but in this case, the way this particular tsuba has aged really gives it a lot of character. The menuki are very nicely done too. All in all, a very attractive sword. The least we can say about its original owner is that the man had taste (and apparently a fat wallet as well :lol: ). :)

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Thomas Jason

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Posts: 230 Location: New Joisey

Sun 12 Jun, 2005 11:53 pm

1.) Never clean the patina off of shakudo. This is a no-no, Shakudo was an alloy developed specifically for its patina. Removing the patina devalues the value of the habaki.

2) The Horimono does not Read "Kill the Enemy" it is instead an invocation of BUJIN MARISHITEN, the Goddess of War.

3) Horimono is crudely done. It was likely added later afterwards to mask a flaw.

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Roy Lindus

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Posts: 68 Location: UK

Mon 13 Jun, 2005 12:58 pm

Thomas Jason wrote:

1.) Never clean the patina off of shakudo. This is a no-no, Shakudo was an alloy developed specifically for its patina. Removing the patina devalues the value of the habaki.

2) The Horimono does not Read "Kill the Enemy" it is instead an invocation of BUJIN MARISHITEN, the Goddess of War.

3) Horimono is crudely done. It was likely added later afterwards to mask a flaw.

Thanks for your comments Thomas.

First, I did not say that I had cleaned the habaki but that it had been cleaned,also as you may know, Shakudo will repatanate by itself given time.

Second,The Bonji is indeed Marishiten. According to hawley it "Chases the devils and enemy". Another option from a Japanese polisher I knew at the time offered "Defeat the Enemy". Well The japanese way of defeating the enemy in ww2 was to.......see what I mean?.

Last. I am not sure just how many Horimono from the Showa period you have seen, I have seen many. It is better than most and not as good as some. As to your last part of the comment, where did you get that from?, are you a little 'Grumpy' today. LOL
:lol:

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Roy Lindus

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Posts: 68 Location: UK

Mon 13 Jun, 2005 1:03 pm

Ah Ha

G. Scott H. wrote:

Roy Lindus wrote:

In the photo showing the sword mounted with its Saya the Habaki had been cleaned. Over time Shakudo can and will repatenate which this seem to have done...

Amazing what a little Brasso and a soft cloth will do. :) Thanks for the clarification.

Roy Lindus wrote:

The Tsuba is of cast gilded brass, we may now consider this "Cheap" even nasty but this isa thought based on our liking for old Tsuba.

Well, cast brass certainly isn't the most durable tsuba material ever, but in this case, the way this particular tsuba has aged really gives it a lot of character. The menuki are very nicely done too. All in all, a very attractive sword. The least we can say about its original owner is that the man had taste (and apparently a fat wallet as well :lol: ). :)

Actually Copper,Brass,Leather and even lacquered wood were used as Tsuba on Tachi. Mnay Kinko Tsuba od Shakudo, Sibuichi and Sentoku were seen on Katana and Tachi. In fact pretty much all sword guards on Shin Gunto in WW2 were of brass, but I suppose that the Imperial army did not expect to much 'Fencing' in their combat....... :lol:

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G. Scott H.

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Posts: 410 Location: Arizona, USA

Mon 13 Jun, 2005 1:38 pm

Re: Ah Ha

Roy Lindus wrote:

Actually Copper,Brass,Leather and even lacquered wood were used as Tsuba on Tachi. Mnay Kinko Tsuba od Shakudo, Sibuichi and Sentoku were seen on Katana and Tachi. In fact pretty much all sword guards on Shin Gunto in WW2 were of brass, but I suppose that the Imperial army did not expect to much 'Fencing' in their combat....... :lol:

Thanks for the info. :) My knowledge of Japanese swords is very limited. My interest in them is fairly recent (perphaps a year at most?) and my primary interest remains European weapons, though the more I learn about Japanese blades, the more I like them. Given some of the materials you mentioned, as well as the rather small size of the tsuba, would it be accurate to say that the tsuba is used more as a "stop" and an "index" point for the user's strong hand rather than as a guard? In other words, it keeps the user's hand off of the blade? Admittedly, the guard on a western sword serves much the same function, but it is also large and strong enough (generally) to aid in parrying and blocking the opponent's blade. :)

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Roy Lindus

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Posts: 68 Location: UK

Mon 13 Jun, 2005 1:55 pm

Re: Ah Ha

G. Scott H. wrote:

Roy Lindus wrote:

Actually Copper,Brass,Leather and even lacquered wood were used as Tsuba on Tachi. Mnay Kinko Tsuba od Shakudo, Sibuichi and Sentoku were seen on Katana and Tachi. In fact pretty much all sword guards on Shin Gunto in WW2 were of brass, but I suppose that the Imperial army did not expect to much 'Fencing' in their combat....... :lol:

Thanks for the info. :) My knowledge of Japanese swords is very limited. My interest in them is fairly recent (perphaps a year at most?) and my primary interest remains European weapons, though the more I learn about Japanese blades, the more I like them. Given some of the materials you mentioned, as well as the rather small size of the tsuba, would it be accurate to say that the tsuba is used more as a "stop" and an "index" point for the user's strong hand rather than as a guard? In other words, it keeps the user's hand off of the blade? Admittedly, the guard on a western sword serves much the same function, but it is also large and strong enough (generally) to aid in parrying and blocking the opponent's blade. :)

I think the tsuba comes in several catagories, the first as an art object. The Japanese warrior was also artistic and poetical {Generalisation}, depending on his station he would apply the finest quality he could to all forms of art and the sword was certainly considered an art form.
Even the lacquering of a box for a Daimyo could take months while at each stage it would be brought for examination and approval!.
Iron Tsuba even though performing the function of Protection were also infinate in variation and as today considered to be works of art.
Kinko {Soft metal Tsuba} can be very fine indeed, equal to any goldsmith work in Europe of any time, but it could be argued that most of the fine pieces were never intended for actual battle scenario's and were just prestige/parade and court use.
At one period as the mounts became so "Over the top" with precious metals, an edict was issued demanding that these were lacquered black. This may well be where the comment of "Sober,typically Samurai" came about.

:)

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Thomas Jason

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Posts: 230 Location: New Joisey

Mon 13 Jun, 2005 2:12 pm

Roy Lindus wrote:

First, I did not say that I had cleaned the habaki but that it had been cleaned,also as you may know, Shakudo will repatanate by itself given time.

Second,The Bonji is indeed Marishiten. According to hawley it "Chases the devils and enemy". Another option from a Japanese polisher I knew at the time offered "Defeat the Enemy". Well The japanese way of defeating the enemy in ww2 was to.......see what I mean?.

Last. I am not sure just how many Horimono from the Showa period you have seen, I have seen many. It is better than most and not as good as some. As to your last part of the comment, where did you get that from?, are you a little 'Grumpy' today. LOL
:lol:

Roy:
The fact that you had before and after photos of the cleaned habaki led me to believe you had cleaned it. Either way, I felt it was important to get this across due to the "Brasso" comment.

Construing the bonji as "Kill the Enemy" is a bit inaccurate. It may be extrapolated to mean that in the loosest sense, but its important to make clear that it is an invocation of Marishiten first and foremost.

I have seen worse horimono, but this is nowhere near the upper end of horimono done during that period. Good Horimono is a bas-relief. The excess steel is carved away from the blade to reveal the design beneath. This creates a 3-d effect. This horimono appears carved into the blade, giving it a 2d appearance and it appears the hand was none-too steady in some areas. This leads me to believe that it was done by an amateure. In most cases I've run into where amateure horimono was done(even some professional work), it was done to mask a flaw of some type. Usually this was done by dealers in order to make an unappealing blade sell to a casual collector.

I have doubts that the tsuba is original to the blade. It's inconsistent with the Koshirae theme and seems designed for the gunto retention clip. From the photos it seems the fuchi was not designed for the clip. I'd imagine the original tsuba was swapped out.

And yes, my life is a living hell.

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Roy Lindus

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Posts: 68 Location: UK

Mon 13 Jun, 2005 2:51 pm

Em

Thomas Jason wrote:

Roy:
The fact that you had before and after photos of the cleaned habaki led me to believe you had cleaned it. Either way, I felt it was important to get this across due to the "Brasso" comment.

Construing the bonji as "Kill the Enemy" is a bit inaccurate. It may be extrapolated to mean that in the loosest sense, but its important to make clear that it is an invocation of Marishiten first and foremost.

I have seen worse horimono, but this is nowhere near the upper end of horimono done during that period. Good Horimono is a bas-relief. The excess steel is carved away from the blade to reveal the design beneath. This creates a 3-d effect. This horimono appears carved into the blade, giving it a 2d appearance and it appears the hand was none-too steady in some areas. This leads me to believe that it was done by an amateure. In most cases I've run into where amateure horimono was done(even some professional work), it was done to mask a flaw of some type. Usually this was done by dealers in order to make an unappealing blade sell to a casual collector.

I have doubts that the tsuba is original to the blade. It's inconsistent with the Koshirae theme and seems designed for the gunto retention clip. From the photos it seems the fuchi was not designed for the clip. I'd imagine the original tsuba was swapped out.

Hallo again Thomas.
No, The mountas are original to the blade and officer. It was aquired and the story is that is came from padang(?) Sumatra in 1946 from an English speaking Officer, Lt Sakae Ogata.
I have had many semi civil mounted swords, some with just an Iron tsuba, One, a Kamakura Tachi blade that had an edo Iron tsuba, wonderfull long gold and Shakudo Menuki of a man hauling a boat of barrels. The Fuchi/Kashira were Showa period Shakudo,Nanako of the finest quality but had Shin Gunto ito. The red and black banded saya complete with Kurikata was covered with a good Combat cover while the hanger was just plain Iron plate with copper rong. So here we had a blade from the 13/14th century,Menuki probably around 1700, Tsuba 1800 & F&K from 1926-----

Sadly as I ahve not yet mastered my Digital camera these images are scans, they are not so good but The fuchi match's the kashira and never was designed to have a retention clip, most in this style and many in true gunto mounts did not, used a leather strap that passed through the ana of the Tsbua. I think that the scan and its reproduction of both the Bonji and Horimono may well have missled you as to its quality, another on a blade by Tadatsuna (See attached} is of a far better quality but I suspect that when Ogata san equipped his sword whith these mounts, he bought the very best he could afford.
Good talking to you Thomas, do you have a large collection?. The odd thing would be if you were the man of the same name who bought my NobuKuni Tanto some two years ago?. :lol:

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Thomas Jason

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Posts: 230 Location: New Joisey

Mon 13 Jun, 2005 3:39 pm

Roy: That makes sense. I've seen a few of these civilian mounted blades before. I'm still betting that this piece originally had a different tsuba which may have been swapped out by the officer himself or his family prior to the war.

My collection is modest. I mainly dabble in muromachi era and shinsakuto.

Wasn't me who bought the NobuKuni, but if there's another "Thomas Jason" collecting Nihonto, it's be a hoot to speak to him.

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Roy Lindus

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Posts: 68 Location: UK

Mon 13 Jun, 2005 4:01 pm

aaaaaaah

Thomas Jason wrote:

Roy: That makes sense. I've seen a few of these civilian mounted blades before. I'm still betting that this piece originally had a different tsuba which may have been swapped out by the officer himself or his family prior to the war.

My collection is modest. I mainly dabble in muromachi era and shinsakuto.

Wasn't me who bought the NobuKuni, but if there's another "Thomas Jason" collecting Nihonto, it's be a hoot to speak to him.

So your not an "Estate agent" {Realtor?] then, bummer as they {The you folk} say. He was as I remember in a place called Palmshore or something.

ShinsakuTo,had a friend drop by this evening, thrilled to bits as his wife {Vicar} has bought him for his birthday a 'Shinsaku To' by a Belgian smith!!!. His son is a Royal marine Commando, had the chap make a combat knife for him then Mum{The Vicar} made contact and founf that the mans main love is Nihonto. Now apart from the splendid idea of having a Tanto made for you,in my book it would have been nice to have one by a Japanese..........mean minded, probably.

Several years ago the British To-Ken society had a Shin Saku To exhibition, the blades were superb. The nearest I have gotten to this is I commissioned a set of mounts for a Gendiato, great fun and having the Tsuba with an attribution to me is a sad but enjoyable thing.

Give up on the Tsuba thing, you sound like my Scot's mother in law, better still come by and have a look but be quick as we are haveing some work done on the house and the sword, his rank badges,picture and field belt are currently on e.bay in hope to pay for at least part of it.......

Regards

Roy :eek:

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