Hello, I was wondering if anyone could tell me about or give me links to information about what the Britons, Picts and Gaels used after the Romans in around the 7th Century and up to the 9th century. I can't seem to find any information of Welsh swords or weapons from this time period and the only Gaelic or Goidelic weapons I can find come from the Brythenwalda and Viking Conquest expansions of M&B: Warband. I've seen more on the picts such as the H ans Square Shields and their axes and crossbows as well as a chape from a scannard but nothing more. If anyone could tell me more about the topic and possiby sellers or just reproductions of these peoples' weapons and armour it would be much apprecitated.
Thank you.

Short answer, the reason that you can't find much is there isn't much to find.
From Wales and Scotland there is an almost total absence of known examples of weapons from this period.
From Wales, I've seen a dagger and a spearhead from Coygan Camp, and a couple of spears from Four Crosses in Powys.
Nothing at all from Scotland apart from a pommel and a gold and garnet scabbard boss (the so called chapes from St Ninian's may not be chapes at all). Obviously there's the Pictish stones, particularly the Aberlemno stone which depicts a battle scene.


From the South West of Britain, there's a spearhead from Trethurgy and a dagger from Gwithian
There's also a spearhead and dagger from Cornwall.

There are some surviving swords/long knives from pre-Viking Ireland. If you search this forum for 'Lagore' you'll find some posts which give you details.

For more info, I suggest contacting my friend Benjamin Frankaert, leader of the Letavia re-enactment group in Britanny. He's made a study of post-Roman/early medeival British (as distinct from Englis/English) weapons.

'Celtic' may not be the correct appellation for the British people post-Roman occupation anyway. As a catch-all term though, I suppose it works. Between the end of the Roman period and the start of the medieval with the Norman Conquest, you're looking at a fairly narrow window before the Migrations begin--in fact it's possible that they overlapped to some degree. So one major reason why there wouldn't have been many arms buried during this time is that the end of the Romano-British era had quite a bit of struggle back and forth, both internecine between the various tribal groups of Britain and the Germanic Migration Period invaders. In such a situation, arms are more valuable above the ground than in it...

Matthew Bunker said:

Quote:

Nothing at all from Scotland apart from a pommel and a gold and garnet scabbard boss (the so called chapes from St Ninian's may not be chapes at all).

I hadn't heard that the so-called chapes may not be chapes at all. Is this new theory? Do you have some more information? I'm about to embark on a reproduction on some of those pieces with a great maker, so would like to have the best idea.

There's a couple of "pyramids" or cones really in the St. Ninian's treasure as well, one of which seems a close match to the pommel. But if they are scabbard fittings or not is hard to say for sure. They seem to be close in function though. Anyhow, seems that the treasure is more closely dated to 7th century, not exactly post roman, though I do think they have more of a native pictish or gael design than Anglo Saxon on an Anglo-Saxon influenced fitting. Perhaps a kingly gift from Bernicia to Dalriada or some such thing. I'm hardly an expert though.

The Pictish H and square shields are only found once in the same carving, no actual remains. A Czech outfit offers a reproduction, but you might as well make your own. They are pretty neat and distinctive though.


Matthew Bunker had earlier alerted me to some of the strange sub-roman swords found in Ireland. See here for one of the "Lagore" types: http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=16016

The classification and description of these is found in Ettienne Rynne's monograph "A Classification of Pre-Viking Irish Iron Swords"

There is a hilt find off the cost of Wales, but I'm pretty sure it's Scandinavian influenced. Just forgot the name though.

Take a look at this pictish hilt on the Inchbrayock stone: http://i.pinimg.com/1200x/3f/f4/97/3ff497b42c...ec3171.jpg

Does that look like a round roman pommel nut? There's one on one of the Lagore swords that was linked to above: http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=16016

It doesn't look like an anglo-saxon pommel. I did see a one lobed viking sword, but it didn't quite look like this. Can we call this a post roman british sword?

I don't know. By the time these picture stones appear, it's really late in the picture stone game, so there's cultural transmission with the Norse and the Anglo-Saxons. Like 800s, 900s. And then the pommel/hilt looks to me personally like a standard Wheeler type I with a bit of a tang button. Not exact, for sure, but the whole thing seems later than what could reasonably be called sub-Roman or post-roman.

But a cool find, and thanks for posting it! Maybe it's an example of something more indigenous to Pictland, or Hiberno-Norse, but I think it's too late for post-roman. The other swords you link to are awesome, but quite a bit earlier.

I guess I personally would stop post-Roman time around 600 and consider it all something else at that point. Vendel, Viking, Merovingian, Carolingian, Anglo-Saxon, Insular British for non-Anglo-Saxon places such as Pictland and Wales.

J, I think you're right. I found that image on pinterest and thought it was a behmer type I with a roman nut. I think it's closer to this: http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p149/aldoray/pictweapons.jpg

I thought some of you might find this interesting: In my Sword I trust. A Reassessment of Irish Iron Age Swords With a Focus on Their Potential Use in Battle by Sam Hughes. Nothing ground-breaking but worth a read.

https://www.academia.edu/23711389/Hughes_S._2016._In_my_Sword_I_trust_._A_Reassessment_of_Irish_Iron_Age_Swords_With_a_Focus_on_Their_Potential_Use_in_Battle

Len I feel your pain, I love the time period and the location but there really aren't enough finds in place to determine what possible things could truly be Pictish rather than imports. Wales too. Ireland at least has some of those funky swords, but I'm not aware of any actual sword found in what was Pict-land that looks like the stone or the funky swords. But I'm glad you brought up the stone since I hadn't noticed it. And some finds happen every year or five and so hopefully something will turn up that can help us out here.

But anyhow, your last image comes from the Osprey book and it's hard to say much more than "Maybe, maybe not" that any of those swords could actually be a pictish sword.

Still, it would be great to get one made and I hope to do so. But I don't think it can be considered the same time of 500-800 AD.

Stephen, thanks for the link! Looks great.

Moving south to britons - I think this could be a possible alternative to anglo-saxon swords. The Notitia Dignitatum (c.400) has what looks like a couple of sword hilts (lower right): https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Notitia_Dignitatum_-_Magister_Officiorum_West.jpg They're hard to make out, but they don't look like anglo-saxon type hilts to me. They remind me more of Emperor Honorius's spatha from the same period: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Consular_diptych_Probus_406.jpg I've yet to see a reproduction of this sword.

I realize the problem with the Notitia Dignitatum is that it's a 15thc copy.
To sum up what everyone knows - we have these early british-roman swords: http://swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?27042-Pict-Swords Then nothing till the anglo-saxons arrive.