myArmoury.com - Brotherhood of St. Marx and the fencing schools at 15-16th c

Posts: 448 Location: Sioux City, IA

Wed 16 Mar, 2016 4:20 pm

Brotherhood of St. Marx and the fencing schools at 15-16th c

I was reading about the Brotherhood of St. Mark by wikipedia (english and german versions) and I got doubts concerning some of the informations. To make matters worse, my german domain is not the best, so I hardly understood what is exposed here and here.

There were fencing schools in Germany or even in Europe before the Emperor Frederick III gave the monopoly of the "German Master of the Longsword" 's title to the Brotherhood?

In doing so, he outlawed other schools or prohibited other schools the teaching long sword techniques in Germany?

German texts often make mention of something that would be "Spring Fencers" but I found nothing substantial on the internet about them.

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Shahril Dzulkifli

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Posts: 1,265 Location: Malaysia

Fri 18 Mar, 2016 5:41 am

Brotherhood of St. Marx and the fencing schools in 15-16th c

Both sites are in German. But I wonder if there are German speakers in this forum who can give us more infos about this brotherhood and the swordfighting schools in what is now Germany in the 15th and 16th centuries.

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Lafayette C Curtis

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Posts: 2,698 Location: Indonesia

Mon 18 Apr, 2016 5:46 am

Re: Brotherhood of St. Marx and the fencing schools at 15-16

Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote:

There were fencing schools in Germany or even in Europe before the Emperor Frederick III gave the monopoly of the "German Master of the Longsword" 's title to the Brotherhood?

There were many fencing masters (and, arguably, schools) in Europe before the Marxbruder got their charter. By and large legitimate fencing masters served individually under an aristocratic patron or taught in an urban militia guild (such as the Guild of St.Michael in some Belgian cities). Others taught illegally, and in fact a great deal of information we have about fencing masters in Europe before the turn of the 15th century is from court records about the prosecution of fencing masters for teaching without the appropriate licences.

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In doing so, he outlawed other schools or prohibited other schools the teaching long sword techniques in Germany?

Not entirely. There were still fencing schools and masters outside the Marxbruder, and later on many of them banded together into a looser organisation known as the Freifechter (and sometimes mocked as the "Federfechter," though we don't know exactly why). it doesn't help that the term "Freifechter" also seems to have been used as a rank within the Marxbruder. Try these links:

http://kunstfechter.blogspot.co.id/2010/11/wh...chter.html

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4Wy4VUTvpKKRkFfbk9iQ2FwOFE/edit

https://talhoffer.wordpress.com/2011/06/14/a-brawl-tailor-is-not-a-marxbruder-federfechter-or-luxbruder/

http://hemaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=28

http://hroarr.com/heinrich-cornelius-agrippa-...eyfechter/

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Pedro Paulo Gaião

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Posts: 448 Location: Sioux City, IA

Mon 28 Aug, 2017 5:04 pm

Re: Brotherhood of St. Marx and the fencing schools at 15-16

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:

Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote:

There were fencing schools in Germany or even in Europe before the Emperor Frederick III gave the monopoly of the "German Master of the Longsword" 's title to the Brotherhood?

There were many fencing masters (and, arguably, schools) in Europe before the Marxbruder got their charter. By and large legitimate fencing masters served individually under an aristocratic patron or taught in an urban militia guild (such as the Guild of St.Michael in some Belgian cities). Others taught illegally, and in fact a great deal of information we have about fencing masters in Europe before the turn of the 15th century is from court records about the prosecution of fencing masters for teaching without the appropriate licences.

Talhoeffer spent a time, I believe in Switzerland, under the patronage of a local aristocrat. A year ago I read a translation of his works, describing a duel between his patron and an opponent, the latter being defeated and killed at the end (dagger through the helmet's visor).

The Guild of St. Michael is like one of those military guilds of Netherlands, like the guild of archers, crossbowmen and harquebusiers? I first came across those when I read the Museum commentary of the Festival of Archer's picture:

Museum voor Schone Kunstep Antwerpen wrote:

In the early 14th century, archers guilds were established in cities across Flanders and Brabant. These associations would regularly organise festivals. Archery contests provided not only useful practice for guild members, but also entertainment. Such events would invariably conclude with a feast where flutists, drummers and minstrels played music, rhetoricians performed plays written for the occasion, and jesters provided general entertainment. This painting is a rendering of the Festival of the Archers organised by Antwerp's four archers guilds: the ‘old’ and the ‘ young’ Arbalest and the ‘old’ and the ‘young’ Longbow. The Longbowmen have gathered in an enclosed garden.

Source: http://www.kmska.be/en/collectie/highlights/Schuttersfeest.html

I tried to search for more, but Wikipedia didn't mentioned a fencing guild (but the St. Michael is one of the mentioned patron saint's guilds:
Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutterij

You need to have a diploma to teach fencing even before Marxbrüder? Why they would persecute such teachers?

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:

Pedro Gaião wrote:

In doing so, he outlawed other schools or prohibited other schools the teaching long sword techniques in Germany?

Not entirely. There were still fencing schools and masters outside the Marxbruder, and later on many of them banded together into a looser organisation known as the Freifechter (and sometimes mocked as the "Federfechter," though we don't know exactly why). it doesn't help that the term "Freifechter" also seems to have been used as a rank within the Marxbruder. Try these links:

I'm reading them now. What ranks they had in Marxbruder besides the title of Provost and Freifechter?

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Lafayette C Curtis

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Posts: 2,698 Location: Indonesia

Thu 07 Sep, 2017 11:41 am

Re: Brotherhood of St. Marx and the fencing schools at 15-16

Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote:

Talhoeffer spent a time, I believe in Switzerland, under the patronage of a local aristocrat. A year ago I read a translation of his works, describing a duel between his patron and an opponent, the latter being defeated and killed at the end (dagger through the helmet's visor).

That's Leutold von Konigsegg. The narrative of the duel in one of Talhoffer's manuscripts is imaginary, however; it envisions the ideal circumstances of how the duel would take place and be won by his patron, but as far as we know the actual duel as such never really took place.

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The Guild of St. Michael is like one of those military guilds of Netherlands, like the guild of archers, crossbowmen and harquebusiers? I first came across those when I read the Museum commentary of the Festival of Archer's picture:

It was one of those guilds. One of them -- a fairly late example founded in the 17th century -- is currently the oldest European fencing club still in operation: http://confrerie.be/de-club/

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You need to have a diploma to teach fencing even before Marxbrüder? Why they would persecute such teachers?

Not necessarily a diploma, but some sort of official permit or licence. Unlicenced fencing instructors were widely persecuted since they or their students might cause trouble by instigating duels or brawls against the students of rival schools/teachers, against the city authorities, against citizens just minding their business, and so on. There's plenty of material for comparison with other martial art milieux and traditions -- for instance, look at Ip Man's Wing Chun students in 1950s and their propensity for getting into street and rooftop fights.

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