myArmoury.com - Kelvingrove Messer?

Posts: 717 Location: Winchester, VA

Thu 17 Apr, 2014 5:43 pm

Kelvingrove Messer?

Does anyone have any more information on the below sword/messer? Anything that you have would be great.

The pics were taken off of Andrea Carloni Flickr page and it seems to be listed as an arming sword. But it almost looks like a double sided arming sword mounted with a "messer style" hilt. I absolutely love it.

Better pics would be fantastic.

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Shahril Dzulkifli

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Posts: 1,265 Location: Malaysia

Tue 22 Jul, 2014 7:17 pm

Kelvingrove Messer?

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Information on the Kelvingrove Messer?
I'm afraid I don't have, Jason.
Anybody?

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Nathan Robinson

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Posts: 11,553 Location: San Francisco

Tue 22 Jul, 2014 7:42 pm

It doesn't look like an arming sword to me (or a sword, at all), but a pretty standard grossemesser. I like this form of weapon, too.

Terminology... particularly that found in museums... is really frustrating at times.

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Luke Adams

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Posts: 57 Location: NYC

Tue 22 Jul, 2014 8:11 pm

I noticed, in the museum description, it was listed as a curved sword. To my knowledge, all knightly swords are single-handed and double-edged.

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Mark Lewis

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Posts: 382

Tue 22 Jul, 2014 8:50 pm

I believe this caption refers to a different sword entirely... there is indeed an "arming sword" with a curved blade! See attached pic from Capwell's "The Real Fighting Stuff".

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Nathan Robinson

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Posts: 11,553 Location: San Francisco

Wed 23 Jul, 2014 1:21 am

You nailed it, Mike.

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Michal Plezia

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Posts: 585 Location: Poland

Wed 23 Jul, 2014 3:52 am

Mark Lewis wrote:

I believe this caption refers to a different sword entirely... there is indeed an "arming sword" with a curved blade! See attached pic from Capwell's "The Real Fighting Stuff".

The blade on this one looks a bit like accidental warp during heat treating ;)
One of my blades ended with the similar curvature after quenching. :confused:

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Mark Lewis

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Posts: 382

Wed 23 Jul, 2014 6:16 am

Michal Plezia wrote:

The blade on this one looks a bit like accidental warp during heat treating ;)

This seems like the most plausible explanation to me. In a way, this just makes me more curious about this sword's history. If the curve was regarded as an unacceptable manufacturing defect, presumably it would have been scrapped immediately, which clearly didn't happen... did this sword go into the "bargain bin"?

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Jeffrey Faulk

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Posts: 578 Location: Georgia

Wed 23 Jul, 2014 9:16 am

"Sabering" is a definite flaw that does happen during heat-treat often enough. Historically if there was no time to re-do the treat, they'd just go ahead and use these blades as they would have been quite functional, just kind of weird shaped. It was that or scrap it, hammer it back into a lump of steel and start over entirely.

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Luke Adams

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Posts: 57 Location: NYC

Wed 23 Jul, 2014 2:14 pm

I wonder if there are any redeeming factors in using a curved double-edged sword...

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Malcolm A

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Posts: 89 Location: Scotland, UK

Thu 24 Jul, 2014 1:31 am

Jason,
I live on the Edinburgh side of Scotland which isn't that far from Glasgow and the Kelvingrove Museum.
The next time I go through I will try to get you better pictures of the grossemesser and its information plate.
With the Commonwealth Games having just started I won't be going that way for a while as the city will be mobbed.
Cheers,

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Jason Elrod

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Posts: 717 Location: Winchester, VA

Thu 24 Jul, 2014 2:58 am

Malcolm A wrote:

Jason,
I live on the Edinburgh side of Scotland which isn't that far from Glasgow and the Kelvingrove Museum.
The next time I go through I will try to get you better pictures of the grossemesser and its information plate.
With the Commonwealth Games having just started I won't be going that way for a while as the city will be mobbed.
Cheers,

Thank you Malcolm. I would appreciate any pictures that you can get of this piece.

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Mike Ruhala

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Posts: 335 Location: Stuart, Florida

Thu 24 Jul, 2014 2:59 pm

Luke Adams wrote:

I wonder if there are any redeeming factors in using a curved double-edged sword...

While not as common as straight double edged swords there are curved examples from the Nordic lands, the latest evidence I've seen is from 14th century artwork and there are actual artifacts from centuries earlier. I wouldn't be surprised if there's quite a number of these tucked away in museums somewhere but generally overlooked because they do not match the common perception of what either Viking or knightly swords should look like.

As far as redeeming factors go the convex edge would present more cutting surface at an advantageous angle so it would offer at least a little benefit to the slice. Other than that any offensive or defensive saber technique that plays on the curve of the blade would be equally applicable to a curved fully double edge blade, it's a perfectly valid blade configuration.

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