My wait paid off! The Erbach sword is MRL's Deal of the Day today. $132! Yes, I bought two of `em--one for me and one for you, the latter to fund the former. This is going to be a fun project, but now I really need to expedite completion of my Type XIV.
https://www.museumreplicas.com
Damn, and just after I ordered the Italian Falchion, too! Oh, well, perhaps it will make the Deal 'O the Day another time. :(
| Christopher Gregg wrote: |
| Damn, and just after I ordered the Italian Falchion, too! Oh, well, perhaps it will make the Deal 'O the Day another time. :( |
That does often happen. If it doesn't, I'll be happy to sell you a much-improved version. :D
Sean,
What are your plans for the Erbach? New scabbard, wrapped handle? The reason I ask is that i would eventually like to modify production weapons, for my own use and collecting. I was looking at MRL's 'Sword of Dover" and thought it looked like a nice one. Any opinion as to its accuracy as far as the brass fittings go and the blade geometry? Thanks and I look forward to see what you do with the Erbach! :D
I was also wondering if there is a thread on here where I can get a look at the one you are working on now?
What are your plans for the Erbach? New scabbard, wrapped handle? The reason I ask is that i would eventually like to modify production weapons, for my own use and collecting. I was looking at MRL's 'Sword of Dover" and thought it looked like a nice one. Any opinion as to its accuracy as far as the brass fittings go and the blade geometry? Thanks and I look forward to see what you do with the Erbach! :D
I was also wondering if there is a thread on here where I can get a look at the one you are working on now?
| Luke Zechman wrote: |
| Sean,
What are your plans for the Erbach? New scabbard, wrapped handle? The reason I ask is that i would eventually like to modify production weapons, for my own use and collecting. I was looking at MRL's 'Sword of Dover" and thought it looked like a nice one. Any opinion as to its accuracy as far as the brass fittings go and the blade geometry? Thanks and I look forward to see what you do with the Erbach! :D I was also wondering if there is a thread on here where I can get a look at the one you are working on now? |
Certain:
• New grip, with chappe of either tubular or "D" form (now that I've figured out the tubular type I'll probably stick to that.)
• Peen block (meaning a slightly shorter grip unless I shorten the pommel)
• Pommel modification--shortening and/or extending the fluting down to the base
• Narrow the arms of the cross closest to the blade to create a more "trumpeted" effect (the unchanging section diameter of the arms is probably the greatest aesthetic flaw of this sword).
• Permanent assembly, with peened tang, JB Weld and brass wedges where appropriate.
Probable:
• Wood-core scabbard and simple suspension appropriate for the period.
• Blued hilt
Absolutely, Positively Not:
• Copying A&A's Erbach or the original sword. These days I go out of my way to avoid duplicating other modern work, and this particular blade can't be made to match that of the original. Whatever Windlass might have intended, this piece is nothing more to me than a generic Type XVIII bastard sword kit to be interpreted through 15th/16th c. Austrian and German artwork. I've already collected my guide images for the piece, and I'll post those when I start a thread on this project.
Here's my current Type XIV thread, though I don't have any progress photos posted yet. I'll do that soon.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...hlight=xiv
Until then, you can see pretty much exactly what I'm doing by looking at the progress photos for my last completed project. Same file technique on the cross (albeit in 13th c. style,) grip construction and scabbard core.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ht=opinion
As for the "Sword of Dover"--If you're not choosy about the historical period, I would say that the Erbach is a vastly superior deal (and, for today at least, less expensive). If you want to stick with High Medieval, get the Windlass Type XIV. Very nice piece, especially with some time on the workbench.
(New guy with first serious post/question. "Hi!")
Oooooh!!!
That certainly looks like an awesome deal to me, particularly being within my budget. I would love to have this as my second ever "functional sword," it would contrast nicely with my Windlass Classic Medieval. The fact that Sean (salute) found it worth ordering completely got my attention as well.
However, I'd still prefer to order from KOA. I know KOA has a price-matching policy so I thought I'd call them to see what they could do. Their recording informed me they were "closed Thursdays" noooo!!! Regardless, I sent them an email inquiring about it, even including a link to this thread as a bit of "back-up." In light of their unusual business hours, I think I'll take a chance on missing out at MRL to test KOA's policy.
Everything Sean plans on doing to his Erbach sounds fantastic and I can't wait to see the pictures. From all the excellent and detailed posts I've read here regarding sword modification, I've now got the bug. However, I'm still going to start with more humble projects to get my feet wet. Something just occurred to me that I might like to try, and here's where I hope some of you might give me some feedback:
This sword immediately struck me as a "Nobleman's sword," and I can envision it with an oxblood grip. I've read here that it's not too difficult to strip the dye off of Windlass grips/scabbards. What I'd like to do is re-dye and physically modify the existing grip, leather and all. It already has nice risers, so I'm wondering if, after I removed the dye, could I dampen the leather, then just wrap it in twine (till it dries) to add cord-wrap detail?? If anybody else has aimed so low to have done this, or would even care to speculate, I'd greatly appreciate anything you might have to say. (Think I'd have to dub the finished sword "The Lazy Bastard.")
Also, does anybody know if the grip is stitched together at the seam, or is it a "hidden" seam?
Oooooh!!!
That certainly looks like an awesome deal to me, particularly being within my budget. I would love to have this as my second ever "functional sword," it would contrast nicely with my Windlass Classic Medieval. The fact that Sean (salute) found it worth ordering completely got my attention as well.
However, I'd still prefer to order from KOA. I know KOA has a price-matching policy so I thought I'd call them to see what they could do. Their recording informed me they were "closed Thursdays" noooo!!! Regardless, I sent them an email inquiring about it, even including a link to this thread as a bit of "back-up." In light of their unusual business hours, I think I'll take a chance on missing out at MRL to test KOA's policy.
Everything Sean plans on doing to his Erbach sounds fantastic and I can't wait to see the pictures. From all the excellent and detailed posts I've read here regarding sword modification, I've now got the bug. However, I'm still going to start with more humble projects to get my feet wet. Something just occurred to me that I might like to try, and here's where I hope some of you might give me some feedback:
This sword immediately struck me as a "Nobleman's sword," and I can envision it with an oxblood grip. I've read here that it's not too difficult to strip the dye off of Windlass grips/scabbards. What I'd like to do is re-dye and physically modify the existing grip, leather and all. It already has nice risers, so I'm wondering if, after I removed the dye, could I dampen the leather, then just wrap it in twine (till it dries) to add cord-wrap detail?? If anybody else has aimed so low to have done this, or would even care to speculate, I'd greatly appreciate anything you might have to say. (Think I'd have to dub the finished sword "The Lazy Bastard.")
Also, does anybody know if the grip is stitched together at the seam, or is it a "hidden" seam?
| Scott S. wrote: |
|
This sword immediately struck me as a "Nobleman's sword," and I can envision it with an oxblood grip. I've read here that it's not too difficult to strip the dye off of Windlass grips/scabbards. What I'd like to do is re-dye and physically modify the existing grip, leather and all. It already has nice risers, so I'm wondering if, after I removed the dye, could I dampen the leather, then just wrap it in twine (till it dries) to add cord-wrap detail?? If anybody else has aimed so low to have done this, or would even care to speculate, I'd greatly appreciate anything you might have to say. (Think I'd have to dub the finished sword "The Lazy Bastard.") Also, does anybody know if the grip is stitched together at the seam, or is it a "hidden" seam? |
As far as I can tell, grip and scabbard color are not associated with an individual's status. You'll see red and black at all levels of society. High status is more often indicated by decoration of the scabbard, grip and hilt furniture (elaborate gilt metal scabbard mounts, gilt furniture, appliques or gilding on grip and chappe, etc.). See the image of St. Catherine below, although this is a pretty extreme example. Saints, especially George, are sometimes shown with these incredibly rich weapons, but are more often shown with relatively plain swords, as are men-at-arms and knights. So, you could make a relatively plain, but well-finished, sword and consider it appropriate for the field use of a high-status soldier. Bear in mind that my observations apply only to the Austrian/German art I'm looking at.
What you're describing as far as stripping and re-dyeing the grip wrap is likely to be much harder to do than just cutting a new wrap from inexpensive chamois. You'd be surprised just how easy it is, and because chamois is cheap, you can practice on a dowel or tool handle. If you're going to use the original grip core, the removed cover will give you a rough template to work with. In theory, the existing grip wrap would take some kind of cord impression if you wet and re-glued it. It's a very shiny (chemically tanned?) leather, though.
Windlass grip wraps typically are very coarsely stitched up one side. That's really the least of their problems. I think most people would be shocked at the difference between the stock Windlass grip and an historically appropriate grip on the same sword. A good grip makes a tremendous difference in the feel of the sword. I think it's the single most important upgrade one can make to a Windlass (or equivalent) sword. It also happens to be one of the easiest alterations to make. Wood and leather are much easier to work with compared to steel.
PS: If you're worried about customer service from MRL/AC, you needn't worry. I've never had any problems with them, they have a good return policy and, because you're in NC, you'll probably get the sword within a few days of ordering. My last order arrived before MRL sent the email notification of shipment.
Attachment: 131.25 KB
Two more examples of swords of this period associated with high-status individuals.
Attachment: 104.86 KB
Attachment: 72.21 KB
Attachment: 104.86 KB Attachment: 72.21 KBSean,
Earlier you mentioned shortening the hilt in order to peen the sword. Would it be possible to lengthen the tang by removing part of the base of the sword? I hope that makes sense. I guess then the problem would be refitting the cross guard. The reason I ask is that I have a Gen2 Pompei Gladius that I would like to peen and and modify for my first modification project and shortening the grip isn't very practical.
I am new at all this, so I apologize for all the questions. I have read three books now on smithing and never could find anything about retempering a sword. Is this possible? I would like to reshape the tip section of this sword to better suit the geometry of originals. CouldIi send the sword away to have someone temper it again or is that not possible. basically i guess my question is that once a sword is tempered... is that a sealed deal.
Thanks again
Luke
Earlier you mentioned shortening the hilt in order to peen the sword. Would it be possible to lengthen the tang by removing part of the base of the sword? I hope that makes sense. I guess then the problem would be refitting the cross guard. The reason I ask is that I have a Gen2 Pompei Gladius that I would like to peen and and modify for my first modification project and shortening the grip isn't very practical.
I am new at all this, so I apologize for all the questions. I have read three books now on smithing and never could find anything about retempering a sword. Is this possible? I would like to reshape the tip section of this sword to better suit the geometry of originals. CouldIi send the sword away to have someone temper it again or is that not possible. basically i guess my question is that once a sword is tempered... is that a sealed deal.
Thanks again
Luke
| Luke Zechman wrote: |
| Sean,
Earlier you mentioned shortening the hilt in order to peen the sword. Would it be possible to lengthen the tang by removing part of the base of the sword? I hope that makes sense. I guess then the problem would be refitting the cross guard. The reason I ask is that I have a Gen2 Pompei Gladius that I would like to peen and and modify for my first modification project and shortening the grip isn't very practical. I am new at all this, so I apologize for all the questions. I have read three books now on smithing and never could find anything about retempering a sword. Is this possible? I would like to reshape the tip section of this sword to better suit the geometry of originals. CouldIi send the sword away to have someone temper it again or is that not possible. basically i guess my question is that once a sword is tempered... is that a sealed deal. Thanks again Luke |
Yes, it's easy to take from the base of the blade the .25" or .5" you'd need to peen. Everything then just slides down, sometimes with a little help from a file. I suspect that most factory grips, crosses and pommels are loose enough that they'll drop that much without modification. You can cut the blade with a Dremel tool and cutoff wheel. This goes pretty quickly and is confined to a small area, so I don't think you'd have to worry about temper. I'd be more concerned about the junction of the cuts, which shouldn't be a hard angle. You can soften that angle with a small round file and this will give the blade a bit more theoretical stability (I'm told that a blade is more likely to snap if the spot where blade turns to tang is a sharp corner).
To reshape the tip, just use a big file and work slowly. Easy to take off more. Hard to put back what is now metal dust on your floor. A file won't heat the blade significantly or get away from you like a power tool will. You won't have any problem with temper.
Just got my shipped notice from MRL. Might be able to report first impressions as soon as tomorrow. :D
It'll be especially interesting to compare the two examples, check out consistency of assembly, finish, etc. We rarely get to do that.
It'll be especially interesting to compare the two examples, check out consistency of assembly, finish, etc. We rarely get to do that.
Last edited by Sean Flynt on Thu 06 Aug, 2009 2:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Thanks for the information. I guess the reason I was asking about the temper was that I feel the original temper wasn't done that well. This blade actually has a "hamon" line where you can see the metal change. However, that line doesn't move down the whole blade and when reshaping the edge earlier I noticed the file biting in harder along sections of the sword. sections of the sword that the "hamon" does not reach. I guess it isn't really a big deal since this is a thrusting weapon.
I plan to make the rest of the furniture for the hilt section and scrape the original hilt. This sword is by no means historically accurate. So fitting the rest of the stuff to the tang will be up to me for the sizing.
Here is a link to that sword so you can see why I would like to change the hilt if you are interested. http://www.imperialcoinc.com/Shared/IP-022.html
Thanks again, and eventually i will be posting progress on this project.
I plan to make the rest of the furniture for the hilt section and scrape the original hilt. This sword is by no means historically accurate. So fitting the rest of the stuff to the tang will be up to me for the sizing.
Here is a link to that sword so you can see why I would like to change the hilt if you are interested. http://www.imperialcoinc.com/Shared/IP-022.html
Thanks again, and eventually i will be posting progress on this project.
| Luke Zechman wrote: |
| Thanks for the information. I guess the reason I was asking about the temper was that I feel the original temper wasn't done that well. This blade actually has a "hamon" line where you can see the metal change. However, that line doesn't move down the whole blade and when reshaping the edge earlier I noticed the file biting in harder along sections of the sword. sections of the sword that the "hamon" does not reach. I guess it isn't really a big deal since this is a thrusting weapon.
I plan to make the rest of the furniture for the hilt section and scrape the original hilt. This sword is by no means historically accurate. So fitting the rest of the stuff to the tang will be up to me for the sizing. Here is a link to that sword so you can see why I would like to change the hilt if you are interested. http://www.imperialcoinc.com/Shared/IP-022.html Thanks again, and eventually i will be posting progress on this project. |
I wouldn't worry about. It certainly wouldn't be worth paying for a new treatment. Looks like you'll be able to use the grip, if nothing else. You can get hardwood spheres from a Hobby Lobby or Michael's store, by the way. Lowe's has brass nuts that are easily reshaped. There's another recent thread discussing how to modify off-the-shelf gladii. You should check that out if you haven't already seen it. Should be a very rewarding project.
Wow, thanks Sean for your most indulgent reply!
Hmm, Ok! I was going on a very vague assumption that "the more striking the color, the higher the status." Along the lines of Tyrian Purple, Royal Blue etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_purple And I did have the general understanding regarding ornamentation.
Given the sword, I would see no reason to look elsewhere! And thanks for the visual references, I dragged them into Pshop and looked them over closely.
That's certainly the case with my Classic Medieval, I thought it was pretty acceptable looks-wise for the price but because of this forum my standards have changed dramatically. Also, based on what I just found out, it sounds like re-wrapping the Erbach will be "mandatory." I thought I'd go ahead and see what MRL had to say about the Erbach so I called them, and the woman I talked to said it was stitched "up the back side." Or, what I would now refer to as the "Sh***y side of the sword." (Perhaps it could be thrown like a football!) So yes, you've talked me into bypassing the timid approach, And I will definitely plan on having the most comfortable lawn tools around before proceeding to a sword. (I think my wife's gonna get a custom rake for Christmas!) Your mentioning the possibility that the leather might not be veg tanned also kind of clinched it for me.
Also, thanks for the word on MRL's customer service. Now I just need to decide if I'm gonna buy it or not!
So I have one more Erbach-related question: The "twist" on each end of the guard reminds me of RitterSteel's German Wald Sword, (which I assume was meant to emulate the branches of a tree.) Given that I've never seen that style anywhere else, do you know if that's a uniquely "German/Austrian" design element?
(BTW, Nice Gladius Luke!)
| Quote: |
| As far as I can tell, grip and scabbard color are not associated with an individual's status. |
Hmm, Ok! I was going on a very vague assumption that "the more striking the color, the higher the status." Along the lines of Tyrian Purple, Royal Blue etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_purple And I did have the general understanding regarding ornamentation.
| Quote: |
| Bear in mind that my observations apply only to the Austrian/German art I'm looking at. |
Given the sword, I would see no reason to look elsewhere! And thanks for the visual references, I dragged them into Pshop and looked them over closely.
| Quote: |
| Windlass grip wraps typically are very coarsely stitched up one side. That's really the least of their problems. |
That's certainly the case with my Classic Medieval, I thought it was pretty acceptable looks-wise for the price but because of this forum my standards have changed dramatically. Also, based on what I just found out, it sounds like re-wrapping the Erbach will be "mandatory." I thought I'd go ahead and see what MRL had to say about the Erbach so I called them, and the woman I talked to said it was stitched "up the back side." Or, what I would now refer to as the "Sh***y side of the sword." (Perhaps it could be thrown like a football!) So yes, you've talked me into bypassing the timid approach, And I will definitely plan on having the most comfortable lawn tools around before proceeding to a sword. (I think my wife's gonna get a custom rake for Christmas!) Your mentioning the possibility that the leather might not be veg tanned also kind of clinched it for me.
Also, thanks for the word on MRL's customer service. Now I just need to decide if I'm gonna buy it or not!
So I have one more Erbach-related question: The "twist" on each end of the guard reminds me of RitterSteel's German Wald Sword, (which I assume was meant to emulate the branches of a tree.) Given that I've never seen that style anywhere else, do you know if that's a uniquely "German/Austrian" design element?
(BTW, Nice Gladius Luke!)
Sean,
I have been looking at this sword all day.. after reading your posts the bug bit, and I have one ordered also. I also plan to do some modifications.. of course I enjoy this part of sword collecting.
A re-wrap of the grip and a total new scabbard, at least at this time, will be what I plan on completing.
There is a bit of a review on this sword (with some pics) at:
http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/erbach.html
Scott,
I also purchased the MRL Classic and reworked the grip and guard on it (made the guard shorter). If you wish you may view my work here:
http://www.yeoldegaffers.com/project_grip_2.asp
Ron
I have been looking at this sword all day.. after reading your posts the bug bit, and I have one ordered also. I also plan to do some modifications.. of course I enjoy this part of sword collecting.
A re-wrap of the grip and a total new scabbard, at least at this time, will be what I plan on completing.
There is a bit of a review on this sword (with some pics) at:
http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/erbach.html
Scott,
I also purchased the MRL Classic and reworked the grip and guard on it (made the guard shorter). If you wish you may view my work here:
http://www.yeoldegaffers.com/project_grip_2.asp
Ron
Ha! Well met Ron!
I'm VERY aware of your site, have had it "favorited" for awhile now. Let me take this opportunity to say "Thank You" for putting all that excellent information up. You're truly a one-stop shop for serious Medieval projects, and I plan on taking major advantage of it. I am absolutely going to try the following projects because of your site: grip rewrap, scabbard, shield and probably quiver (thinking of taking up the longbow.)
I was also extremely pleased to see Peter Johnsson's detailed scabbard leatherwork plans that you'd provided. That was like finding gold because all that over-under lacing was a complete mystery to me. Hey, you might get a kick out of this: I was so inspired by Peter's cool illustrations, in combination with having just bought the book "Swords, an Artist's Devotion" that I downloaded and um, "colored" his work. http://www.fractalrust.com/scabbard/ (I work at home for a company in another State, and have to suffer through the occasional teleconference, this totally passed the time!) Simply offered here as an ode to Peter's great work and to daydreaming about "swords 'n stuff." In deference to Peter, I probably shouldn't leave this up too long.
On a separate note, I very much enjoyed all of your Ren Faire pictures and really admire your outfits/armour.
Also, since you mentioned your own MRL Classic, (which I was thrilled to see when I first found your site. I felt like those instructions were there just for me.) I was curious, as to how much difference shortening your guard made in your point of balance? It looked like you knocked a good inch off the total width!
And, thanks for the Erbach review link, I think I'll pass on the deal and instead go buy some leather, grip and scabbard supplies. I just found out there's a Tandy Leather in Raleigh, now I'm really looking forward to checking it out.
Again, glad to have met you Ron,
cheers!
I'm VERY aware of your site, have had it "favorited" for awhile now. Let me take this opportunity to say "Thank You" for putting all that excellent information up. You're truly a one-stop shop for serious Medieval projects, and I plan on taking major advantage of it. I am absolutely going to try the following projects because of your site: grip rewrap, scabbard, shield and probably quiver (thinking of taking up the longbow.)
I was also extremely pleased to see Peter Johnsson's detailed scabbard leatherwork plans that you'd provided. That was like finding gold because all that over-under lacing was a complete mystery to me. Hey, you might get a kick out of this: I was so inspired by Peter's cool illustrations, in combination with having just bought the book "Swords, an Artist's Devotion" that I downloaded and um, "colored" his work. http://www.fractalrust.com/scabbard/ (I work at home for a company in another State, and have to suffer through the occasional teleconference, this totally passed the time!) Simply offered here as an ode to Peter's great work and to daydreaming about "swords 'n stuff." In deference to Peter, I probably shouldn't leave this up too long.
On a separate note, I very much enjoyed all of your Ren Faire pictures and really admire your outfits/armour.
Also, since you mentioned your own MRL Classic, (which I was thrilled to see when I first found your site. I felt like those instructions were there just for me.) I was curious, as to how much difference shortening your guard made in your point of balance? It looked like you knocked a good inch off the total width!
And, thanks for the Erbach review link, I think I'll pass on the deal and instead go buy some leather, grip and scabbard supplies. I just found out there's a Tandy Leather in Raleigh, now I'm really looking forward to checking it out.
Again, glad to have met you Ron,
cheers!
| Scott S. wrote: |
| Ha! Well met Ron!
On a separate note, I very much enjoyed all of your Ren Faire pictures and really admire your outfits/armour. Also, since you mentioned your own MRL Classic, (which I was thrilled to see when I first found your site. I felt like those instructions were there just for me.) I was curious, as to how much difference shortening your guard made in your point of balance? It looked like you knocked a good inch off the total width! And, thanks for the Erbach review link, I think I'll pass on the deal and instead go buy some leather, grip and scabbard supplies. I just found out there's a Tandy Leather in Raleigh, now I'm really looking forward to checking it out. Again, glad to have met you Ron, cheers! |
Scott,
wow.. thanks for all of the nice comments!
It didn't change it much since it the guard is getting nearer the POB. I would assume it would change it much more if the same amount was removed from the pommel. It moved it about a 3/8 of an inch or so. But this sword is more for show and cutting, and I think it looks much better now.
btw.. my wife's family lives in Southern Pines. We are down there a couple times a year. Enjoy the shopping and scabbard building!
Ron
| Scott S. wrote: |
|
So I have one more Erbach-related question: The "twist" on each end of the guard reminds me of RitterSteel's German Wald Sword, (which I assume was meant to emulate the branches of a tree.) Given that I've never seen that style anywhere else, do you know if that's a uniquely "German/Austrian" design element? (BTW, Nice Gladius Luke!) |
The "writhen" style is distinctively German/Austrian.
Ron, thanks for the link showing how to re-wrap a grip. Very informative! Now I feel confident to give it a try myself!
Cheers,
Cheers,
| Quote: |
| Ron: It didn't change it much since the guard is getting nearer the POB. |
Ah, of course! I have to admit I was thinking in more absolute terms like, anything past the P.O.B., be it guard or pommel would affect it the same. (Physics FAIL.) A medical doctor's sliding-weight scale comes to mind now.
| Quote: |
| Sean: The "writhen" style is distinctively German/Austrian. |
"Writhen" perfect name for it!
Thank you both again, (no reply necessary) I am so pleased to be learning all this.
Page 1 of 1
You cannot post new topics in this forumYou cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
All contents © Copyright 2003-2006 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Full-featured Version of the forum
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Full-featured Version of the forum