Hi
I was wondering if butted maille was ever used in any time period? Like the stuff you see for sale for like $100.
I was watching a show on The History Channel and one of the guys was saying early Romman maille was butted, I was wondering if this wuz true and if not was butted maille ever used in any century?
Thanx
Z

I have seen some modern butted mail that is hard as nails and would stop any sword thrust. It is not thin and flattened but round and thick. It is a lot heavier then the flattened ones. I would expect that any period butted mail would have to make the same compromise.

I think there is one Roman-era piece of mail (Kirkburn??) that is said to have butted rings, maybe alternating rows of butted and solid. But a lot of us want to see more micro-analysis of that, since other bits of "butted" Roman mail have turned out to be the usual half solid/half riveted when X-rayed. I don't think there is any evidence that *early* Roman mail was butted. Sounds like the History Channel got it wrong again, unfortunately.

Vale,

Matthew

Aventails in later period helmets from the mideast tend to use butted mail, but the links are very small and they are probably not expected to carry much duty. That's all I know of for sure. Everything else is riveted.

Ah, excellent, thank you! Pretty sure that was the one I was thinking of, but I'll have to dig around through the Roman Army Talk board to see if there are any other supposedly butted bits. That's the best place for information on Roman stuff in any case:

http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/

Valete,

Matthew

Matthew,

I think that Steven is going to be getting you a list of some of the other butted mail that we know about. Even without the kirkburn there is still at least a couple of other British butted finds. I've found a few fragments here and there on the continent as well for the La Tene period that is butted. One I remember as being small diameter rings that looked to be an 8 in 1 pattern. My guess was that it was probably a doubler since a full shirt would have been pretty heavy, never know though. Next time I'm going through binders it is one of the things that I'm keeping an eye out for and will send Steven's way.

Shane

All the finds of early mail were initially reported to have been butted. Those which have undergone further analysis (e.g. Kirkburn) have turned out to be riveted. Those which have not (e.g. Cuimesti) are still reputed to be butted though I would bet money on all of them turning out to be riveted when analysed further. There is not a single example of Roman mail that has been confirmed as butted after radiographical analysis.

Re the Kirkburn shirt , what are the references / who did the x-rays etc .... just need to know to correct my group leader who still goes by the original report.
One day archeologists maybe able to work without guessing / refering to old ideas & theories eh !

Red Herring Warning.
Someone posted an image of maille that included butted rings on this very site, can't for the life of me find the thread now. Of course the butted rings were brass, decorative, and absolutely seccondary to the rest of the rivited avantail they were atached to.

I am afraid that this discussion may be grounded in "justification", rather than experimental archaeology.

Maybe I should give archeology another look at for a career choice; even I've got more common sense than what they're apparently doing.

M.