Hi, I'm a new member here at myArmoury.com so forgive me if this isn't the appropriate location for this topic.

I work as a freelance artist. Most of my illustrations focus mainly around celtic warriors. (Circa 200 BC to 100 AD)
I've always been a big fan of Angus McBride and often find myself wondering where he got his points of reference. Mostly for his works regarding celtic chainmail. In many of his drawings, the celtic nobles are portrayed in chainmail with the following characteristics - Usually without sleeves - Ends before the thigh - Has what appears to be an extra layer of mail on the shoulders. I've never seen this design before because the layer around the shoulders is unknown to me. The Roman Lorica Hamata's extra shoulder protection is very similiar in design but certainly not the same. Does anyone know of any surviving shirts of celtic mail? I would very much like to better understand their design as to help me out on future projects. Here are some pics for a better description of celtic chainmail. Do take notice of the extra shoulder protection.

http://www.totalwar.org.pl/gallery/Ancient%20Celts%20-08.jpg

http://www.totalwar.org.pl/gallery/Ancient%20Celts%20-07.jpg

http://www.revesdacier.com/catalog/images/Q6061AL.jpg

http://community.imaginefx.com/fxpose/johnny_...ginal.aspx

(The last one is from a different artist named Jonny Shumate but the design is similiar)

If anyone possesses any significant knowledge about celtic chainmail designs, knows where I can find out more about them, or has anything that may help me shed some light on this subject, your help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for taking the time to read this.

The shoulder pieces look like they can be removed....allmost a chain paldron.

I believe that it is based on period artwork, primarily the statues at Entremont. (I couldn't find a pic of the statue online, but I know Connolly has it......btw Connolly is a great resource and has great illustrations, much better than McBride in my opinion).
It is also speculated that the Ciumesti finds were constructed in such a manner.
Hope this helps,
Dan

contact Nate B. from the myArmoury.com peoples. he's one of the leading USA celtic folks.

the mail of the romans came from the celts ... well sorta ya :) i think the mail is a tad longer than waist level, maybe mid thigh at longest. i believe there are several different types of "capes" as well as hooks and button closures.

Ave!

For starters, if you haven't already, get thee to the Roman Army Talk board!

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/

The concept of the "shoulder doubling", as we tend to call it, is well-established for the Roman era. The Roman style is actually taken straight from the Greek linothorax or linen cuirass:

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/linothor.html

Basically the same shape in a different material. Some Gallic shirts are much the same as this, but it does look like others are different, more of a circular cape attached around the neck opening, rather than a U-shaped piece attached at the bottom edge.

I remember going around with Nate Bell about this a couple years ago, and was brilliant enough to save his response!

Quote:

Well, the answer, as usual is yes, no, maybe and "we don't know". As far as Celtic maille doublers go, there seems to be a type that is similar to the basic "Roman" linotorax-shaped doubler, one that is that basic shape but without the little insets (just big rectangles), perhaps a version with rounded flaps, a capelet style, and then the "other" category. The basic "caped" style comes from a couple sources. There is the statue at Entremont which typies the cape, but there are 2 or 3 other carvings depicting this style with some type of lyri-form design clasp that seems to hold it together. The actual maille find at Ciumesti, Romania is the one with the 3-bosses, and the way the doubler is shaped oretty clearly indicates it is a cape, and a separate piece. Just so happens I just got in the 2 original article on the Ciumesti maille. Also jsut so happens I have not fully translated the German yet (and I am not even going to try the Romanian!) Obviously the Vacheres warrior statue has a basic, standard Roman style maille shirt with a longer "hem". The clasp is mostly hidden by the warrior's cloak but appears to be slightly different fromt he double hook variety. The Pergamon arch shows a maille shirt with square shoulder flaps, and a rectangular bar with like 4 rivets on it securing the flaps, how exactly we are not sure....There is a Northern Italian terracotta figure that Connolly reproduces that shows the "Roman" style but with rounded flap ends. None of the carvings except the Vacheres shows any indication of edging, and these are detailed carvings. The Kirkburn maille is the "other". In it, the flaps are not doubled maille, but actually areextensions of the rear portion oft he shirt that come over the shoulders and hook onto the front---just like a linothorax. No leather edging, with specific testing done for mineralized organic content...I am a little leery of this reconstruction, but it seems to be the accepted one.

That get you started? Precious few pieces of mail have been found that are large enough to make out the original form of the armor, and probably a few of those are still rolled up in rusted lumps... So we're stuck with mostly artwork, and all the inevitable arguments over interpretation. But I hope that helps!

Vale,

Matthew