Posts: 9,554 Location: Dayton, OH
Mon 18 Feb, 2008 2:12 pm
Valiant Armoury Actium?
I'm a little intrigued by the new Valiant Armoury Actium
gladius, designed by Gus Trim and Christian Fletcher. To my untrained eye, it looks pretty good, but I'd love to hear thoughts on its historical accuracy from the gladius lovers out there.
[ Linked Image ]
http://www.christianfletcher.com/Christian_Fl...ctium.html
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Posts: 558 Location: Central PA
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 1:23 am
Oooh...
... would that be considered a
Gladius Hispaniensis? I've really wanted somebody to make a good one for some time...
Posts: 228 Location: England
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 8:55 am
Hi Chad.
This is very attractive but I'm not sure about just how accurate it is. I see from the link that this is being marketed specifically as a Mainz pattern
Gladius. Now for a Mainz this does look a bit narrow in the waist, and whilst we all know that the Gladius was a stabbing sword, the point looks just a little too long. All in all it looks a little too slimline for a Mainz Gladius. The double fuller is a little odd as well. I've seen these on later period Spathas, but never on a Mainz. If these are from an historical example then I would be very interested in seeing it.
The thing that really struck me though, is the scabbard suspension. I've been doing some research on these recently, as I had a scabbard made for my Mainz last year and I've been looking for the correct method of suspension. This looks like it is set up to be worn at an angle on the left side in a medieval fashion. However, the Gladius was always worn on the right hand side in a vertical position. The best form of suspension that I have seen for these scabbards involves the use of all four rings, with the baldric passing through the top ring, looping around the scabbard using the bottom rings, and then passing back up through the top ring on the opposite side. I have seen modern baldric designs where the strap splits to go down to the four rings seperately, in a similar fashion to this one. However this doesn't hold the scabbard as securely in the vertical position as the method that I have described, and probably over-complicates what is a fairly simple system.
Personally, I would happily defer to anyone who has studied these swords in depth, as I have probably researched the scabbards more than the swords themselves, but my initial opinion is that this is nice, it just isn't right.
I'm including a picture of my Mainz Gladius by Albion for comparison. From what I've seen this is far closer to the original. Perhaps Valiant should market their sword as the Mainz Sport :)
Cheers,
Darrin.
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Posts: 434 Location: Indianapolis, IN
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 9:21 am
I'd agree with Darrin on almost every point. Its very attractive, but not the best historical replica" Will I buy it? Very likely though!
The fuller thing is an interesting problem. You can find similar fullers on Patrick Barta pieces, so I wonder if anyone has seen them on extant finds?
I think for the money, the suspension issues Darrin mentioned are easy to overcome with some modifications.
Posts: 220 Location: Grapevine Texas
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 9:24 am
I cannot speak for Gus and Christian on the historical accuracy of the piece. I will say that I have left the design for the most part up to these fine gentlemen. As for the Actium. I believe we are focusing on Historical plausibility. The Signature line is a mode for the masses to experience an Gus Trim Blade that has been modified by the Creative genius of Christian Fletcher. If the piece is functional and pleasing to the eye and has mass appeal to the sword buying market then I see no need to restrict the swords for the Signature line.
This may sound funny but the only reason that there may not have been a sword like this then was because Christian wasn't born back then. Had he been a Sword smith then, This may very well have been the period piece we would be referring too. We believe that this piece could have been made back then. For what its worth.
Sonny
Posts: 434 Location: Indianapolis, IN
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 9:47 am
I think all of that is very fair Sonny.
As far as Chad's original post goes though, I suspect that while he is very interested in the design of the Actium, in particular, gladii are held under close scrutiny by collectors largely due to the reenactment community, who really try to nail down accuracy and homogenity. It is hard to find good gladii that are one historically plasuible, two come with a proper scabbard and three, don't break the bank. I think the Actium is a good piece. My only suggestion might be to do without the fullers though, so the reenactor crowd will have more reason to buy it. That really might be a deal breaker with them if I was to guess.
Posts: 101 Location: Idaho
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 10:34 am
For the suspension I've deferred to the expertise of the various reenactment groups featured in Peterson's "The Roman Legions Recreated in Colour Photograps", where it is used in several examples. I've rigged it for an officer's left side but it can be re-knotted for an enlisted soldier's right side, allowing the end user to decide their own role.
What I wanted to achieve with the Actium was something a bit different from all the other Mainz pattern gladii already available out there.
Last edited by Christian Fletcher on Tue 19 Feb, 2008 11:01 am; edited 1 time in total
Posts: 1,458 Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 10:41 am
Avete!
There is certainly no historical basis for the fullers. The blade outline looks wrong to me, just too narrow, with the point too short in relation to the rest. The scabbard is nicely done, though I'm not certain about the decorative motif. Good hilt!
The use of 3 scabbard rings with the shoulder baldric was very common, and the sword does hang vertically. However, it was probably more common for the Mainz to hang from the waist belt, with some sort of suspension (never shown clearly in artwork, of course!) that used all 4 rings.
Obviously, these guys don't do bad craftsmanship, but I don't think that blade is going to attract anyone looking for a historically accurate piece.
Valete,
Matthew
Posts: 629 Location: Sweden
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 11:01 am
Well, I'm no expert on Roman weapons, but I know what I like. And that there is a beautiful sword. :)
Posts: 140
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 11:32 am
Anders Backlund wrote: |
Well, I'm no expert on Roman weapons, but I know what I like. And that there is a beautiful sword. :) |
Agreed, reminds me of the Mohammad Ali saying, "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee."
Posts: 1,032 Location: New York
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 2:24 pm
Why incorporate a feature that is either very rare, contested or questionable on a production sword in the first place? It's not like the sword needs those fullers or the extra waisted shape.
It is a beautiful sword, with a beautiful scabbard, but for for those looking for a reenactment sword, this may not do, even if it is accurate (rare types tend to be frowned upon in reenactment). It could have served both purposes and been just as beautiful.
Besides, with that blade shape, there is no way the scabbard is going to fit my Allectus. Foiled again. :)
(I'll probably buy one anyway, though)
Posts: 220 Location: Grapevine Texas
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 2:30 pm
No disrepect to anyone here who is commited to only Historically exact swords, but I have to ask myself the question that if we all only made historically acurate pieces then eventual want we all be making different levels or versions of the same thing. Had the Gun never been invented and we all still used swords then would not the evolution of the design of swords not also continued????
For what it's worth
Sonny
Posts: 675 Location: Louisville, KY
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 3:16 pm
Valiant sword
Sonny wrote,
"No disrepect to anyone here who is committed to only Historically exact swords, but I have to ask myself the question that if we all only made historically acurate pieces then eventual want we all be making different levels or versions of the same thing."
I agree, Sonny. I have to think that all the Albion fans out there would also have to kind of agree, since many of their designs are historically inspired, too. If modern swordsmiths are going to essentially carry on the noble art of the creation of accuratly made swords, then we, as collectors and enthusiasts, are going to have to allow a certain amount of artistic license when new yet historically-based designs are submitted for our enjoyment. Diversity is the spice of any hobby! :D
Posts: 629 Location: Sweden
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 3:26 pm
Michael Edelson wrote: |
Why incorporate a feature that is either very rare, contested or questionable on a production sword in the first place? It's not like the sword needs those fullers or the extra waisted shape. |
Eh. Swords always have features they don't "need." If you ask me, taking too much of a purist approach kind of takes the fun out of swordmaking.
The question "Why should I incorporate this feature?" does have merit, but to me it's nowhere near as interesting as asking: "Why shouldn't I incorporate this feature?"
Quote: |
It is a beautiful sword, with a beautiful scabbard, but for for those looking for a reenactment sword, this may not do, even if it is accurate (rare types tend to be frowned upon in reenactment). |
That sounds really odd to me. :wtf:
If the authenticity of the design is contested, I could see why they wouldn't want it. But a sword is either historical or it isn't, and the fact that it's rare doesn't make it less so.
Posts: 1,532 Location: Tennessee
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 3:31 pm
I would tend to side with artistic license as well. I allow for these creations as "historically plausible" and they don't have to be dull or common place to believe one might have existed. I also expect variations to be functional, not detracting from the handling or integrity of the device.
If named after a specific battle, typology, or hero's sword, and there is a real surviving specimen to compare with, then I figure it should conform reasonably well. In this case, the combined cross section and fullers look "odd" to me. I would not easily match it with any late Roman or early migration era artifact. I won't go so far as to say the fullers look bad. Strictly as personal taste, they just don't seem to enhance it much for me cosmetically. I doubt from their looks that they make much of a handling improvement functionally. I would like it more without the fullers, which probably are not cheap to produce.
Sans fullers, I would consider it a really nice sword. The suspension could be easily changed to suit tastes.
Posts: 1,032 Location: New York
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 5:27 pm
Sonny Suttles wrote: |
No disrepect to anyone here who is commited to only Historically exact swords, but I have to ask myself the question that if we all only made historically acurate pieces then eventual want we all be making different levels or versions of the same thing. Had the Gun never been invented and we all still used swords then would not the evolution of the design of swords not also continued????
For what it's worth
Sonny |
There's an easy answer to that. You (sword makers) are already making different versions of the same thing, you just take more liberties with the individual features. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to stick to historically accurate designs. Someone mentioned Albion's next gen line and they are not taken from specific historical examples. This is not true. The swords may not be modeled after a specific sword, but every feature on an Albion sword is taken from period examples or period artwork, and I'm not aware of any oddball features except in their museum line swords (the Svante is rather unique). You can't point to an Albion and say "hey, that's not historically accurate". And that is but one reason so many people are in love with them.
I have a counter question...
There are two kinds of swords on the market...fantasy swords and historical swords. Let's put fantasy swords aside and only talk about historical swords. Why make a historically inaccurate historical sword if you know better and can help it? What is the point? (this is a general question and not aimed at your gladius)
Anders Backlund wrote: |
Michael Edelson wrote: | It is a beautiful sword, with a beautiful scabbard, but for for those looking for a reenactment sword, this may not do, even if it is accurate (rare types tend to be frowned upon in reenactment). |
That sounds really odd to me. :wtf:
If the authenticity of the design is contested, I could see why they wouldn't want it. But a sword is either historical or it isn't, and the fact that it's rare doesn't make it less so. |
It is historically plausible for a 15th century German mercenary to wear a barbute (an Itallian helmet), but it is most often frowned upon if not outright forbidden in reenactment groups because such a thing would have been extremely rare for a rank and file soldier, even one who was well off. Reenactment seeks to portray what was common, rather than the exceptions, and these rules are usually there because everyone wants to be special and do their own thing, even if it was extremely rare in reality. A real German army may have had thousands of people and one or two in barbutes, whereas a typical reenactment troupe is lucky to get 30 people. If a bunch of them are wearing barbutes, you have a historical inaccurary.
Same thing with this sword. It will be an affordable production sword that comes with a scabbard. If I ran a Roman group and I allowed it, many of my guys would have them, and then people would think fullered, narrow and pointy gladii were common. This would be an inaccuracy.
If you're making a custom sword, that's one thing...but an affordable production piece should ideally strive to be not only accurate, but not uncommon in the period.
As consumers become more educated, this will happen on its own (you can already see a lot of evidence of increasingly educated consumers exerting their will in the market). I would prefer it happen sooner rather than later.
Posts: 3,646 Location: Midwest
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 6:59 pm
The big question probably has to come down to how much of the total sales potential was actually going to go to a reenactment participant even if the product was perfectly historical? Talk about a niche of a niche market. Not exactly the sort of consumer group that production anythings are usually aimed at.
I think this is a nice design that should sell very well into the sword hobby mass market (such as it is). If it achieves stated production, design and cost objectives it could redefine the market. Something that I'm confident the creators were aware of when starting this project.
Last edited by Joe Fults on Tue 19 Feb, 2008 8:53 pm; edited 5 times in total
Posts: 166 Location: New Mexico
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 7:12 pm
Now im not talking about the
gladius specifically but many swords and armour i have found cannot be ruled out as innacurate i used to be musch more skeptical until i read sword in hand by
ewart oakeshott he mentions that what we have is only a fraction of whtat existed and our rules are to narrow if we find a sword that doesnt fit into our mold then historiens reject it as a fake even if it may not be many swords were reused modified and changed and cannot be written off as fakes. there are great varriants in swords and armour that may have existed it must be proved wrong rather than right. i do agree that reenactment should be general
for reenactment NO
for a sword that is pleasing and MAY (though unlikley) have existed for pleasure thanYES
but my advice buy an albion there is a nice one on ebay right now i believe for reenactment
AND buy this one for fun
Posts: 9,554 Location: Dayton, OH
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 7:41 pm
Sonny Suttles wrote: |
No disrepect to anyone here who is commited to only Historically exact swords, but I have to ask myself the question that if we all only made historically acurate pieces then eventual want we all be making different levels or versions of the same thing. Had the Gun never been invented and we all still used swords then would not the evolution of the design of swords not also continued????
For what it's worth
Sonny |
Valid point, but keep in mind that many collectors are looking to hold a piece of the past--a reminder of the rich history that came before us. That's what I want personally. Those fullers will probably steer me away from this piece.
Some people look for the evolution of period pieces, those modern incarnations. A lot of people call those fantasy swords. They have a following and a place in the market.
It shouldn't be surprising that many people here want historical accuracy. Every page on this site has the header "myArmoury.com -- A Resource for Historic Arms and Armour Collectors" after all. :)
There is a market for both historical stuff and more radical designs. At the end of the day, every business must decide how (or if) to cater to those markets. And consumers must decide is a business's products appeal to them. Ah, capitalism... :)
Posts: 1,032 Location: New York
Tue 19 Feb, 2008 8:20 pm
Joe Fults wrote: |
The big question probably has to come down to how much of the total sales potential was actually going to go to a reenactment participant even if the product was perfectly historical? Talk about a niche of a niche market. Not exactly the sort of consumer group that production anythings are usually aimed at. |
This is true, but as Chad mentioned collectors often have similar standards. After all, how many of Albion's products are sold to reenactors? 1%? 2%? I hate to keep bringing up Albion, but they're such a perfect example. Here is a company that makes what are arguably the finest production swords on the market and their biggest claim to fame is their historical accuracy. That suggests that historical accuracy is indeed important, though I'd throw in the caveat that below a certain price point, buyers are far less discriminating.
I think that the vast majority of swords wind up the hands of collectors, either casual or serious, and that many casual collectors turn to their serious and more knowledgeble counterparts for buying advice. The words "not historically accurate" spoken by a respected collector or reviewer can lead to substantial losses in sales among certain types of buyers.
Now this is a beautiful sword, and it seems to be at least historically plausible, so I've no doubt that it will sell well (depending on price, of course). Also, the other swords in this series are quite nice and have a high degree of historical accuracy so this line should do very well overall, and hopefully create a new standard for mid priced swords. However I think that in the future, designers should keep in mind that the price of adding a flashy feature like the fullers may not be worth paying. Just something to think about.
I'm particularly excited about the kriegschwert, as it may serve as a quality alternative to members of my school that cannot afford the higher priced swords but still want historical accuracy and good performance.
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