Hello alltogether, this weekend I had a discussion on sharpening sword blades and when mentioning I own some Albion swords the others frowned and said those are quite diffcult to hold an edge because the blades seem to be quite soft. I were wondering miyself, did some research here at the forums and found the topic of Lance Chan with his 40-45 Brescia Spadona. After looking on the Albion site I didn´t find anythins on hardness, I just read they use some kind of steel, here it was mentioned as 1075.

As I don´t do cutting more than pool noodles at the moment, just starting, the hardness is no issue, but what when it gets more. I also read of bend crossguards on the Maestro Line Liechtenauers in heavy sparring. The fittings are casted so softer than forged pieces, but is this an issue or just bad luck.

Can some folks give some input on this?

I don't know that I could speak to a specific Rockwell number but when I visited their shop this last September, I personally watched Joe Waites, the head of their blade shop crew, cut a type XV blade into the rolled edge of a 50-gallon steel drum. It cut about 1/4-inch into the drum without any apparent damage (or even visible evidence of scratching) to the blade. It was quite impressive. I would think you'd have to have at least HR 50 or so to get away with that... As for me...after spending a couple of days with the folks at Albion and watching the blades actually being made and tested, I no longer have any questions as to their durability.

You may want to check out this fine article by Craig Johnson: Sword Blade Hardness: A look at the current research.

Even at 45-50 RC, they would be harder than a number of period blades, especially those that Craig used in his article.

Also, I'm not sure whether casting vs. forging creates a noticeable difference in strength of the guard and pommel. You'll get a wide variety of opinions on that.

Here I share with you an apology email I sent to Albion after a year had passed since I purchased the spadona:



Hello. This email is not asking for your forgiveness but I think I owe all of you a true apology. A year has passed since I purchased the spadona and during the period, I've got to handle more swords from various manufacturers, both eastern and western styles. The truth is that I've now seen a lot more swords with thicker edges than the spadona getting dulled more on the same targets (be it pork, water bottles or whatever). It showed that while the spadona was not among the extreme resilient swords that I handled like the tinker and martial art swords, it was certainly not among the average either. While it is historical accurate, it is also a lot better than the average in its heat treatment, given the very fine edge profile. Plus the non-uniform distal taper, a detail that often missed by other makers, gave it a stiffness and point accuracy not commonly found on sword with this length and light weight. These are all the good things I missed in the year ago until now, when I've seen more swords to compare it with. I know I can't repair the reputation damage I've done to your company and I do not expect a forgiveness from you guys either. I just wanted to let you know that you have now an unsatisfied customer turned very satisfied and feeling owing you guys a lot in the educational course. Please send my words to every crew in your company that was involved in working on my sword, and feel free to post my testimonial. I deserve every backlash for my ignorance. Hope you guys have good business in the future.

Hello all, thanks for the input.

I think to get different opinions is not bad, that is what discussing is made for.

I didn´t mean to start a witch hunt either.

And I am not concerned.

But, after discussing with a sword smith at my table at a party last saturday mentioning Albion swords, he just came up with this issue which was from hearsay and he was supported by some other. So I didn´t have proper arguments pros or cons. So I just need more input on what to say, this means more data on steel type, more on heat treatment and so on.

So I like to get some answers, that help in this for the next time and that can enlighten me.

Thx

Hello All,

I want to thank all of you for your interest in our swords. It is nice to know that people care passionately about our work. With that said, I'd like to put this issue to rest. For quite some time, we have utilized the expertise of Kevin Cashen of Matherton Forge to preform precise tests on our blades. Kevin has a fully equipped lab for testing blade steels. The tests that Kevin utilizes include hardness testing, impact testing, and grain structure evaluation.

During one of Peter Johnsson's visits, we traveled to Kevin's home to review his findings and seek his advice on any changes that might be warranted in our blades. We were very pleased with Kevin's report. Kevin confirmed that our blades are on average 54.4 RHC. In addition, Kevin pointed out that the grain structure in our blades was consistent and uniform. In other words, there were no flaws or anomalies present in our steel. In addition, Kevin had a very difficult time breaking our samples in his Riehle impact testing machine. This indicates that our samples were extremely shock resistent.

In my opinion, the questions regarding our blade hardness stem from the use of Rockwell Hardness files. I have personally used these files here at Albion. They are a goods tool to test the general hardness of a piece of steel, but there are some inherent problems with these files that make obtaining an precise Rockwell hardness number nearly impossible. First, the files are in 5 point increments. 5 points on the Rockwell C scale is a large range. Second, the results can be quite subjective. The instructions for these files talk about "scratching" the surface, but in my manufacturing classes the instructors point out that it is when the file "bites" into the steel and not just scratches the surface that you have the correct hardness file. If I was to go by what the instructions say on the files, the result would be a much lower Rockwell number than the actual hardness of the samples. The bottom line is that these files are typically used in the industry to give a worker a ball park idea of the hardness of a particular steel. For situations that require an precise Rockwell number, a Rockwell hardness tester must be used. Kevin has verified that our hardness is on average 54.4 RHC.

In the 6 years I've worked for Albion, I have never seen a sword returned because it broke. This is not to say we are perfect. Sometimes we make mistakes, but we have made it our goal to try and meet the expectations of our customers. We obsess about it. We are always refining our processes and trying to improve our swords so we can continue to make the best production swords on the market. When it comes to the heat treating of our blades, it is no different. Each blade is individually heat treated. Our salt baths are digitally controlled, and we routinely test the hardness, flexibility and durability of our blades. We do all of this to ensure that we are creating the highest quality swords possible.

Thank you again for your interest in our swords.

I know the incident with the guard that bent.
It was during a session with the group Ars Gladii in Austria.
Herbert Schmidt who leads that group is a valued customer and friend of mine.
The context of that situation is lost in the telling of the story as often happens when rumours spread.

As I was told by Herbert himself it hapened like this:
Two students in the group ran at across the room dealing a Zornhau at each other with full force. The blows were stopped with the blade bases and one of the swords got a slight set in one of the guards.

Herbert Schmidt was not surprised at this result. It was a pretty forceful attack from both combatants. On the contrary, he was happy there was not more damage done. All in all he told me he was extremely happy with his Liechtenauer training swords. In fact, I think he recommends them to the members of his group.

Perhaps herbert will chime in and correct me if my memory of the event is not correct.

My Albion Knight which has a fine if not razor edge has struck my target stand (an old tall wooden bar stool) several times. On one occasion the person doing the strike had very bad blade alignment. The edge where the blade struck is slightly dulled to an extent that is only descernible by lighlty running a finger over the area, or reflecting light directly on the blade edge, and this dulling has no effect on performance whatsoever. On another occasion a strike that was off target but well aligned took a big chunk off the top of this wooden stand with absolutely no sign that the contact had occured on the swords blade. Although not metal, a wooden bar stool is a hard object and a decent strike against one seems to be at least a reasonable test in some respects of swords durabiltiy.

All the aforementioned fits well with my experience of my Albion swords.

So I was wondering about the comments I heard, and I doubt, the person who told ever used an Albion sword by himself, perhaps I will meet him again in the future and can then discuss this issue properly.

I was hoping to hear someone from Albion chime in and am delighted to hear who does the hardness testing, this speaks volumes in my opinion.

I let a lot of folks use my knight to cut milkjugs, because I feel it is worth the risk to get people excited about "real" swords, and educate them about swords in general. A good friend of mine, who got a little overexcited, and managed to hit my stand well below the intended target. Somehow he found the one screw in the whole stand :(

It was a good stout blow, and from the pronounced metallic clack I expected a nasty chip. Again, my friend is very strong, and he was swinging hard enough to cleave a half inch of pine and then through a screw. The dent it put in the edge about a milimeter deep, shaped like the shank of the screw. Rather than a chip, it was almost a bunch, or a wrinkle. With a little VERY careful file work, and a few VERY careful hammer blows, the wrinkled steel flattened back out, leaving a tiny round indent, perhaps a third of a milimeter deep.

I don't know why this is, but from what I have observed of my own swords, on the few occasions that I have hit something or another, and it's always been the same thing for all swords used in the cutting of either plastic jugs or cardboard boxes. The Albions seem to be more prone to get a tiny nick in the cutting edge than do the Arms & Armor swords. Both of my Albions were purchased in mid 2006 and I am not sure which steel was used on the Berserkr and the Vassal. I know that now Albion is using a 1075 steel and that Arms & Armor uses a 6150 steel, I am wondering if anyone else has experienced this problem with Albion Swords?
The most prone to nick sword that I have is a Generation 2 Pompeii gladius that I bought in 2005 and that sword will nick if you look at it the wrong way. Ironically, my Hanwei Godfred Viking Sword, Sir William Marshall Sword (not the pattern steel version) and Cromwell sword, do the best at holding a sharp edge.
I've never had a nick that I've not been able to hone out of the edge and I have a whole array of sharpening stones, both oil and water, plus sandpaper to wrap around a small wooden rectangular block, that I also use to sharpen swords.
I was taught by "Joe Wheeler" a top notch master whipmaker (bullwhips, black snakes, signal whips in up to 24 platt) on how to sharpen. So I always get a real nice consistent edge when I am done honing a blade.
Incidentally, I honed the distal false edge on my Vassal and it came out real nice and has not has any negative affect on sword performance. Also, the two albions that I have, are both excellent cutters, some of the plastic jugs that I cut are the thick and very large detergent jugs. Also, I do have very good aim and execution of cutting, for instance with the Berserkr, I can cut the same gallon jug from top to bottom five or six times. I've never had a sword hit a nail or anything like that and I've not done any wood cutting with any of my Arms & Armor or Albion swords.
Any and "All" feedback (positive or negative) is most welcome!

Thanks Much!

Bob

I qualify the following by sayng I know very little of swords and my comments are more questions than answers.

Albion make swords that are an endeavour to be as historcially correct as is practically posible I guess within the parameters of their business model. Their products are excellent and many people agree with this. So if their swords do appear to be more prone to minor nicks than some other makes could this perhaps be an exhibition of historically correct performance as opposed to an attempt to make the blade edges as hard as is possible by modern means. My reasoning here is that if a sword does suffer minor nicks then as others here have attested it is very easy to maintain and rectify. This would be beneficial when considering the sword in it's corect role as a weapon that needs to be maintained and last as long as possible for reasons of economy and practicality.

If a sword edge was made harder than historically correct, at what point does this become detrimental to the durabiltiy of the sword (ie more prone to stress cracks, bending etc instead of the damage being manifested as nicks in the blade).

Also to what extent can the differential hardening of the steel (blade edge hardness as opposed to the relative softness of the body) be acheived. If an edge is a certain hardness to what degree can the body of the sword be softer than the edge (ie if the edge of the sword is as hard as we can make it given todays technological means, will the body still be able to be soft enough to be suitable, or would the stress put on the steel be to great).

Paul, your questions are good ones but not ones that have easy answers. The dynamics of sword usage require a high level of toughness, which essentially limits the hardness. 50-54 HRC is about optimum for a through-hardened sword blade made from modern mill-run steels but this is an average number. Somewhat higher edge hardness can be had with the same steels by using differential hardening or tempering techniques but there are practical limits. To go into more detail actually involves a basic knowledge of steel and how it responds to heat. Grain size and other factors also play a role here in addition to surface hardness. Edge geometry is also a key factor.
Harder isn't necesarily better for a blade that must withstand impacts. A bent edge is almost certainly preferable to a chipped one, or worse, a running crack leading into the body of the blade, so there is a point where additional hardness my be undesireable. At what point you draw this line depends on intended use, a rapier or a sword designed to thrust through gaps in armor can sacrifice some edge hardness for toughness but on the other end are katanas which may have edge hardness around 60 HRC or more, which is likely to chip on a very hard target but are thought by many to be unbeatable for soft-medium targets and can hold an edge for a very long time if used and cared for properly. Context is very important.

After I finish up the acquisition of the Arms & Armor German Rapier for my wife, I bought her the matching dagger last month. I will be purchasing an Albion, most likely a Valkyrja from Kult of Athena, I am waiting for it to come into stock so I can see it, I've already placed a down payment. The Reeve and the Stamford attract me a whole lot too!
By the way, the Stamford handles beautifully, lot's of life in that blade and it feels and looks to be one dynamite cutter!
The nicks that I mentioned in the previous post, were all very tiny and were easily honed and buffed out. I just wanted to qualify that to a more accurate point.
Albions are tremendous swords, this will be my third Albion and it's only a matter of "when" I will buy my 4th Albion.
One thing that is definite, my next sword, which is in the near future, will be an Albion Viking or Anglo Saxon Sword!
That is etched in granite!

Sincerely!

Bob

I had an edge to edge hard contact between my knight and another unsharpened albion (my knight is unsharpened because of italian laws).

Full force almost no visible nick.

1075 is 0,75 percent carbon steel: super good, if you consider that here C45 (0.45 percent carbon steel) is considered is strong steel in Italy.

With the good heat treatment it is far better than any original material or low level reenactment sword alloy.