Hello guys.
Wew!It has been a long time no stop around.
I was looking some armets and close helmets and a guy told me that close helmets didn´t evolved from armets so, Is that true?
What is the main difference between both helmets?
Did close-helmets met battle during the first half of the XVI century?

Thanks a lot guys.

P.D.
About the armour... I Think it is Maximilian style, but, What style do you think it is, French, Italian?
When do you think it was manufactured?

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From what I can ascertain, it seems that close helmets got their beginnings from the workings of Italian bellows-visored sallets and hinged Great Bascinets in the last third of the fifteenth century. Armets seemed to exert an influence on the artistic styling of the bevor, visor, and neck portions of the close helm. Less so on a Max style close helm, which was more strongly rooted in the Italian bellows-visored sallet. It may seem that the close helm was a conglomeration of the most functional and effective parts of the various earlier helm styles, a natural Darwinian progression if you will...

The armour - My guess is French around 1525 to 1535.

Thanks Torsten. I didn´t imagine that French armours were so nice, i though that French knights mostly used Maximilian armours . Just for curiosity, is there any site showing French armours? (Ca.1500-1550)
I have seen a lot of late XVi century close-helmets and they are really nice, but i havan´t seen to much early examples, so If i´m not asking to much i would like to ask how this early close-helmets (Ca.1500-1550) looked like?


Thanks.

According to 'Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight' armets are an early form of close helms and first appear in the fifteenth century.

The main difference between the two helms seems to be their construction and attachment of their bevor:

- The bevor of an armet is split in the middle, with the two halves hinged at the cheek. The two pieces then open outwards.

- The bevor of a 'true' close helm is in one piece and shares the pivot point with the visor, and opens by swinging upwards.

In the first picture below, the one on the left is an armet, and the one on the right is a close helm (with a parade visor).

The second picture shows two earlier 15thC armets, the hinges for the cheek pieces are clearly visible.

Hope that helps explain things.

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15thC armets

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Armet on left, close helm on the right.

Rodolfo, all Maximillian style close helms are late fifteenth to early sixteenth century, about 1490 to 1520. They are strongly influenced by the Italian bellows-visored sallets, not armets. The close helm at bottom right in the previous post is most likely German, from about 1520 to 1525. It would be considered a successor to the Maximillian style. The armet at bottom left in the previous post is most likely a resurgant style from the second half of the sixteenth century and influenced by English workshops. It has many characteristics of period burgeounets, as strange as that may seem.

Here are several more examples of early sixteenth century close helms from the Arsenal in Graz. They are from about 1510 to 1525, and most likely of German and Italian manufacture. They are strongly influenced by the style of armets in the mid fifteenth century, just like the one in the first photo of the previous post. These examples are the precursors of the later sixteenth century style of close helm, like the one on the harness you posted.

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Thanks for the light people. I have a question about the harness... again.
After 1520 non-fluted harness started to be more common but, Are those still Maximilian, or they are of other styles?
I Just can´t see the difference between a non fluted Maximilian style armour with a 1520-1530 French or Italian suit.

Those are wonderful armours, specially Chevalier Bayard´s one, i can´t imagine how well it looked like with military skirts and plumes, sword, belt and all the stuff.
Correct me if i´m wrong, Is Chevalier Bayard´s armour wearing a Close-helmet and the other one in the same picture an talian sallet?

Thanks Torsten
I have another question about those armour styles, Do you know if those non-fluted (French, Italian, etc...) armours were born to face the necesity of an armour wich could be made faster or something like that instead of only fashion? Because, despite being nice, fluting an armour can take a long time, and the smiths were always tampering and forging stronger armours.
Where Maximilian armours made for battle? Since when those other styles were manufactured? And how common non-fluted Maximilian armours were?
And finally, having seen some Maximilian style characteristics in Bayard´s armor and in the first armour i posted (Guessing that it is a 1520-1530 suit), just like the pauldron pattern, Why then another useful characteristics were almost dropped away in later XVI century suits, like those crest over the pauldrons(I think they are called haute piece, i don´t know, but they are in the posted armour)?

Well, really, i don´t know how practical those ¨crest¨ were for later XVI century suits, but they look awesome in earlier suits.
Thanks and sorry for the off-topic questions bombing. :p

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I think you may have the wrong impression. :)

"Non-fluted" armours were probably the norm and fluted "Maximillian" armours were a variant. It just so happens that more fluted armours seem to have survived.

Here is probably one of the most famous "non-fluted" armours, it the Armour of king Wladislas of Bohemia, a German armour which dates to around 1510 AD:

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Can anyone give more fotos of close helms for 1510?