Hello, this is my first post and I'd like to know if anyone can help me identify the date and origins of manufacture of this Persian (?) sword as per attached photos. Any help on the matter would be much appreciated as my knowledge of eastern arms and armour is very limited.

Regards,

Norman

Hi Norman,

Is there anyway you could post a photo of the entire blade as well as a close up of the hilt?

Jeff

Dear Jeff,
No problem, I can post the photos you requested but it won't be for a few days as I'm a bit digitally challenged when it comes to resizing and posting images. I get my son to do it for me and believe it or not he has just left to go home five mins before I logged on after having altered some images for another post I want to do. If you can bear with me I would be most appreciative and I will endeavour to post extra images as soon as possible.
Regards,
Norman.

Hi Jeff,
Here are the photographs I promised.
Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman,

Thanks for the extra pictures this does help.

You have what looks like a 19th century Persian saber. The hilt is missing its original horn or ivory grips scales as well as the metal pommel cap. The quillon block is of classic Persian form. The blade is a persian trade blade.

Because of the reputation of the classic Persian shamshir, Many Persian blades were made in the 18th and 19th century to fill the demand both locally and for export. Some of the blades are of very high quality and produced from wootz steel, others are of lower quality and massed produced. Often the Persian lion in the Sun constellation is seen on these blades (the lion symbol on your blade). The exact meaning of this symbol is somewhat controversial but the generally accepted theory is that it is a pictogram of the famous Isfahan blade smith Assad Allah (Lion of God).
Your blade appears to be one of the 19th century mass produced blades. This can be seen in the execution of the fullers as well as in the lion logo. The high quality logo's have a cleft at the base of the tail, the massed produced logo's do not.
I am sorry that i cannot read the cartouche or the inscriptions on your example.
Over all you have a great piece with a lot of history behind it.

Hope this helps
Jeff

Hi.
I can't see any numbers, so we can't say nothing about exact date, but it looks as Jeff says.

But Jeff, when you say "sham shir", you say "lions tale" "shir", not "asad" I think.
I'm not Fars, so I'm not 100% sure.

I am Persian, and can attest that the Farsi language has a lot of Arabic vocabulary so often there are many different words that mean the same thing. However, I was always under the impression that the word Shamshir already had the more general meaning of "sword" by the Middle Persian period, and that the "lion's tail" association was simply a folk etymology. But perhaps I am just misinformed.....anyhoo, its not really a big deal so just ignore me. :p

Coincidentally, my name is Shamsi (close but not quite Shamshir ;) ) and my brother's name is Asad'u'llah. :)


Nice sword, by the way. I would love to own a Persian sword no matter what the time period! :)

I think the writing in the cartouche says:

" Ma sha' allah, la hawl wa la quwah illa billah al'aley..." and I can't read the rest. It translates roughly as "God does as he wills, there is no strength or power except in God, the sublime..."

It looks like a fairly standard Muslim religious phrase, not the name of an importante personage etc.

AFAIK shamshir is simply farsi for "sword", western experts however usually use the word when referring specifically to Iranian swords.

Arabic, being the language of the Qur'an, has lent words to many other languages in the Middle-east and South Asia including Turkish, Farsi and Urdu.

Dear All,
Many thanks for your interest and your knowledge, I have a few more bits of Indo Persian and Indian arms on which I would like information regarding date and origin so please keep a look out for these.
Regards,
Norman.

Could you please post a close-up of the tang?

Kind regards
Manouchehr

Dear Manouchehr,
Hope these photos of use.
Regards,
Norman.

Manoucher,

So what does the "Shams" in ab-i-joh Shams mean?


Curt

Thank you Hisham. That was a little joke - ab-i-joh is Farsi for beer (water of barley), Shams was a popular brand
sold in the 1960's when I lived there. Unfortunately my Farsi is strictly pidgin, and I never learned to read Arabic calligraphy.

I must be missing something about the stamped cartouches - I don't see an Iranian lion and sun there. Are we talking about the same symbol from the pre-revolution flag and coins?

Curt

The bottom cartouche, right? I don't see the symbol that I am familiar with in that, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

My first impression was that it was an ibex or a deer curled up in sleep. Oh well, I'm no expert on Persian swords except to know that they did beautiful and exceptional work.

Curt