If this question seems a bit far-out, it's because I'm constrained by the rules of a certain role playing game that need not be mentioned. ;)

My question is, how similar is a jian to a rapier? I know they are different weapons, the jian apparently being stiffer (and thus more suited to attacking armored targets?) and the fighting style involving some draw cuts (which a rapier is not suited for?). But would the usage and fighting style of a jian be closer to that of a rapier (perhaps, an early or transitional rapier) than to, say, a broadsword or some type of longsword? Or is a jian so different from any of those swords, that comparisons are completely unhelpful?

Or, if the question is easier to answer framed this way, on a scale of 1 to 10, representing blade thickness and shape, where a 'true' rapier is a 1 and a broadsword is a 10, where would the jian fall?

I'm more concerned with the overall physical properties of the blade than with any particularities of technique that depend on the form of the hilt or the extent of the blade's sharp edges.

Thanks for indulging my attempt at coarse generalizations.

I've seen some Jian that are nearly identicle to shorter rapiers, and then I've seen some that are completely different. There's a huge variety between each type of sword, as the terms themselves are very generic descriptors.

I've seen Scott Rodell demonstrate some jian techniques that are nearly identicle to some Italian rapier techniques, and then others that are completely different. The jian uses more cuts than the longer versions of rapiers, but the styles that utilize shorter rapiers seem to have a lot of similarities.

But then again, I can say the exact same thing about the differences between a rapier and a broadsword. Fencing is fencing, afterall. So to answer your question, it depends. :)

I think there are similarities between both that are not reflected by the physical objects but by the intended use of the weapons.

Tom Leoni has recently published an article about the definition of the rapier (and it was discussed in this thread on myArmoury). The definition he suggests is as follow:

Tom Leoni wrote:

My new definition of a rapier is that it is a single-handed, straight-bladed double-edged sword used predominantly in the 16th and 17th Centuries and optimized for the defense. In particular, the rapier may be the first single-handed sword specifically intended for use without a companion weapon between two unarmored opponents.

which as I understand it is based more on the context and method of use than on the physical properties of the object.

Now, apart from the time-frame, the definition seems real close to that of a Jian. From what I know, in most Chinese arts the jian is used between unarmoured opponents, on its own without a companion weapon, and in a context of self-defence or dueling. Of course that's not to say that the jian was not used in a military context, but it's not the core of what remains in martial traditions. I could be wrong about that, though, because I only have a superficial exposure to Chinese martial arts...

So in a way the rapier and the jian would be similar because they are solutions to the same problem. It's just that with the rapier the focus is more on thrusts, fighting point forward, and with the jian the cuts are more used (especially with the tip, which makes distance equally critical with both weapons). And a rapier fighter and a jian fighter would maybe both face similar challenges when fighting "out of context".

I for one wouldn't mind too much seeing both in the same category in a role playing game. But then maybe I'm not representative of the audience ;)

Regards

Kaveh,
what Bill mentionned about jian's can also be said of rapiers. In the anglo-saxon culture there is a tendency to assimilate rapiers to only the most slender bladed examples of that weapon, which in other traditions is inclusive of a much wider variety of blades, which anglophones seem to refer to as ''cut and thrust'' weapons, perhaps because of the influence of the works of Silver, an englishman who disliked rapiers to a certain extent. So, though I don't know which role playing game you are referring to, I would think that the authors of the game might be inluenced by some retrictive descriptions of what rapiers are all about. If you read Silver, he certainly seemed to think that they had quite severe limits, but I know that his opinion is far from receiving unanimous approval as many do not share his views as to the definition of what constitutes a rapier, many having heavier, stouter blades than those he considers...So good luck with your game and your touching on the neverending story of what is a rapier ( and why does poor Mr. Silver dislike them so...)

JCH

Thanks a lot for those answers, the info is really helpful. It's always interesting to see how people in different historical contexts come up with similar (or not quite similar) solutions to solve similar problems.

EDIT: Oh, and... the game is D&D (or more precisely, Neverwinter Nights), I'm developing a "persistent world" in a Silk Road-based setting. There's not always a clear way to classify a lot of East Asian weapons, and I'm spending a fair amount of time looking into what happened when different martial traditions/technologies came into contact with each other. (Posts in this forum have been most helpful for that.)

Hmm...if you're talking about D&D/NWN, I'd usually class most examples of the jian in the "longsword" category. Of course, if you've browsed this site for a little while, you'd already be aware that the D&D definition does not match the actual historical definition of "longsword"--the D&D longswords are what most serious hoplologists would call "arming swords" or "bastard swords" or just "swords."

Oh, am I the only one who has noticed some resemblance of the Jian with some versions of the Roman Spata ?

Just a random observation as I'm not assuming any crosscultural influences and just a form/function thing.

Also the handling might be very different depending on distal taper/ stiffness of blade etc ...

No, you're not. The visual resemblance between early jian and the spatha is pretty obvious, though I'm not quite sure about whether they actually resembled each other and dynamics and handling. But that's very likely to say the least.

And actually the illustration for "longsword" in NWN has more resemblances with a 19th-century jian than with a medieval European longsword!

There was a thread much like this on Scott Rodell's forum. Im too lazy and tired tonight to go over and search, but I think that it was mentioned somewhere on there that the shape and angles of Chinese armor around the hand/wrist area filled much of the need for hand protection thereby reducing the need for more complex hilt designs.

I think it also pays to remember that the basic Jian design goes back into the hundreds BC, and that there are subtypes with many variations. This makes comparisons different. Im sure with all of the varieties out there we could find some that might more closely resemble Viking blades, while others resemble Spatha, or transition rapier/cut thrusts.