I am a new member of myArmoury.com. A family member recently entrusted me with a model 1860 Cavalry Saber and asked me to restore it for her in some fashion. It is complete but the scabbard has been painted gray. Should I remove the gray paint or will that detract from the piece? Also should I polish the brass on the saber itself? Any guidance would be appreciated as I am a total novice in this area.
thanks
Tim W.
'ello & welcome.
One method would be to strip the grey paint from the scabbard and leave the brass hilt as it is (unless it was completely covered in the greenish tarnish). If the blade is in good shaped (no active rust or major pitting) , a gentle wipe down with a light oil, should put you good to go.
Any markings on the blade close to the guard?
One method would be to strip the grey paint from the scabbard and leave the brass hilt as it is (unless it was completely covered in the greenish tarnish). If the blade is in good shaped (no active rust or major pitting) , a gentle wipe down with a light oil, should put you good to go.
Any markings on the blade close to the guard?
the blade is marked with Mansfield & Lamb, Forestdale, RI inside an oval and US and CEW on the other side
I own a Mansfield & Lamb Model 1860.
Read this:
http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_lost_1860sab.html
If you do anything at all, just remove the paint from the scabbard. If it were mine, I'd probably apply a small dab of Citrus Strip to the most out-of-sight spot on the scabbard, let it sit for a few minutes, then try to just peel the paint off with a toothpick. If that works, proceed to the next-most out-of-sight place, etc.
Under no circumstances should you use any abrasives, metal brushes or power tools. Anything you do to the (probably dark) underlying finish--even just buffing it--will damage the patina and thus the financial and historical value. I don't even wax my Model 1860, but if you want to do that you should invest in a jar of Renaissance Wax and follow directions for use. It won't harm the finish.
Please don't do anything at all to the underlying finish of the scabbard or to the finish of the blade or hilt. Don't "clean". Don't polish. Don't "fix" or remove torn leather or broken wires. If you want a shiny Model 1860, buy a reproduction for $80, sell the antique to somebody who values its full history and buy yourself something very nice from A&A with the cash. If you do anything to the blade or hilt, the sword's value will drop like a stone and you'll destroy any sense of its history. At that point it won't be much more interesting than the $80 repro. Think like a museum curator.
Before you remove the paint on the scabbard you should ask around and make sure that isn't an original military finish. I don't think it would be original to the Civil War, but the Model 1860 served for decades after the war and there might be some official "grey paint" variant out there. Imagine how you'll feel years from now when you're watching Antiques Roadshow and hear about the rare "grey scabbard" Model 1860s now worth a billion dollars in "untouched" condition.
Above all, remember that you've been entrusted not only with the sword itself, but also with its history.
Read this:
http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_lost_1860sab.html
If you do anything at all, just remove the paint from the scabbard. If it were mine, I'd probably apply a small dab of Citrus Strip to the most out-of-sight spot on the scabbard, let it sit for a few minutes, then try to just peel the paint off with a toothpick. If that works, proceed to the next-most out-of-sight place, etc.
Under no circumstances should you use any abrasives, metal brushes or power tools. Anything you do to the (probably dark) underlying finish--even just buffing it--will damage the patina and thus the financial and historical value. I don't even wax my Model 1860, but if you want to do that you should invest in a jar of Renaissance Wax and follow directions for use. It won't harm the finish.
Please don't do anything at all to the underlying finish of the scabbard or to the finish of the blade or hilt. Don't "clean". Don't polish. Don't "fix" or remove torn leather or broken wires. If you want a shiny Model 1860, buy a reproduction for $80, sell the antique to somebody who values its full history and buy yourself something very nice from A&A with the cash. If you do anything to the blade or hilt, the sword's value will drop like a stone and you'll destroy any sense of its history. At that point it won't be much more interesting than the $80 repro. Think like a museum curator.
Before you remove the paint on the scabbard you should ask around and make sure that isn't an original military finish. I don't think it would be original to the Civil War, but the Model 1860 served for decades after the war and there might be some official "grey paint" variant out there. Imagine how you'll feel years from now when you're watching Antiques Roadshow and hear about the rare "grey scabbard" Model 1860s now worth a billion dollars in "untouched" condition.
Above all, remember that you've been entrusted not only with the sword itself, but also with its history.
Last edited by Sean Flynt on Wed 13 Jun, 2007 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
Sean
thanks for the reply- I have not done any cleaning or polishing thus far. The blade is in very fine condition and is shiny. The hilt is brown and you are not recommending that I polish this brass? As for the gray paint- I will await further responses as you make an interesting point about some scabbards being "officially" being painted at some point. Further history reveals that the saber came from a "southern" branch of the family (Georgia) and was brought north in the 1930s. Does anyone else know of a painted scabbard?
thanks for the reply- I have not done any cleaning or polishing thus far. The blade is in very fine condition and is shiny. The hilt is brown and you are not recommending that I polish this brass? As for the gray paint- I will await further responses as you make an interesting point about some scabbards being "officially" being painted at some point. Further history reveals that the saber came from a "southern" branch of the family (Georgia) and was brought north in the 1930s. Does anyone else know of a painted scabbard?
| Tim W. wrote: |
| Sean
thanks for the reply- I have not done any cleaning or polishing thus far. The blade is in very fine condition and is shiny. The hilt is brown and you are not recommending that I polish this brass? As for the gray paint- I will await further responses as you make an interesting point about some scabbards being "officially" being painted at some point. Further history reveals that the saber came from a "southern" branch of the family (Georgia) and was brought north in the 1930s. Does anyone else know of a painted scabbard? |
Since the hilt is one of the focal points of collecting interest, it is especially important that it be in "untouched" condition. Even if you have no interest in selling the weapon, just think of that brown patina on the brass and scabbard as the weapon's history. Discard that and you discard the history. Why did the scabbard become so dark? Most likely, that finish started during the weapon's service life through contact with the sweat of the horse and cavalryman. The leather and wire binding of the hilt were worn by the man's hands--maybe even worn off or broken. The point is, the condition of the weapon is as much an artifact as the underlying metal and wood. Don't discard those artifacts lightly.
I considered getting a repro 1860 to display alongside my antique. That would show folks what the weapon looked like when new, and they could handle it and inspect it without fear of damaging an antique. You'll find this sort of display in many museums--a deteriorated original on display with a pristine reconstruction/reproduction. This also might satisfy your relative's desire for a "restored" piece. On the other hand, she might be delighted just to have a copy of your research into the sword's history and a few notes on why it's so important to preserve the patina.
As for paint, I have read that some saber hilts were painted by CW veterans groups long after the war. I don't know about scabbards, but I would guess that some militia unit or military parade detail might have used Model 1860s with specially painted scabbards up through the early 20th c.
By the way, anything with a Confederate connection instantly becomes much more valuable, both financially and historically. If the family story is that this weapon came from the family's Georgia branch, that's much more interesting than if it came from the family's Michigan or Maine branch. It's certainly possible that your weapon was captured and worn by a Confederate cavalryman. It might have been dropped at the Battle of Atlanta and recovered by a farmer.
| Sean Flynt wrote: |
|
Please don't do anything at all to the underlying finish of the scabbard or to the finish of the blade or hilt. Don't "clean". Don't polish. Don't "fix" or remove torn leather or broken wires. If you want a shiny Model 1860, buy a reproduction for $80, sell the antique to somebody who values its full history and buy yourself something very nice from A&A with the cash. If you do anything to the blade or hilt, the sword's value will drop like a stone and you'll destroy any sense of its history. At that point it won't be much more interesting than the $80 repro. Think like a museum curator. |
hi there,
i wirite in order to offer an alternate opinion to that expressed above, so you may understand that this is not the only one.
first, a japanese saying relating to the upkeep of swords:
"if one is forever taking out one's sword, wiping it down and swinging it around, one will appear aggresive and will find it difficult to attract and keep allies.
if, on the other hand, one keeps one's sword always locked away, without taking it out now and then to be cleaned, the blade will dull, and people will think as much of its owner."
i think that, for a large part, the adverse reactions people have to the subject of cleaning an antique is probably a reaction to the very unfortunate number of blades which have been destroyed by ignorant and enthusiastic folk who've indiscrimantely attacked their blades with sandpaper, grinders, files etc.
i personally do not prescribe, however, to the view that in order for a blade to remain true to itself and its history, it should remain embalmed in the dust of the centuries. for me, this is like saying that in order to remain true to your own life's trajectory, you should never cut your hair or toenails etc.
for me, each sword which is capable of use, and in particular those with a history, is a living thing and deserves to be treated as such. this does not mean that they should be scraped back to the bone, till no trace of their age remains, but that they should be maintained as living and energetic entities.
i have an antique (1640's) which is well endowed with patina and i find this patina very attractive. This patina, as Sean wrote above of others, is highly praised by myself as the visible trace of the swords lifeline and history, the silver hair of its advanced age, so to speak. at the same time, i have cleaned this blade with fine steel wool and buffed it with a woolen blanket (takes a long time) - whereby most of the patina remains on the blade, while the steel has regained much luster and life by shedding some of its dead skin.
point is, it's up to the individual sword owners personal philosophy and perspective, and no single modus operandi should be espoused as the only and RIGHT course of action.
the main thing is maintaining the appropriate care and respect for the being of the sword you are fortunate enough to be dealing with, and not to do anything which would actually damage the sword itself.
cheers, adam s
Adam, I think both you and Sean have very valid perspectives. As an archaeological anthropologist (anthropological archaeologist), I often find myself of two minds about antique "anythings". The bigger part of my psyche, that part that sees antiques, such as weapons, as useful and desirable things (even heirlooms) tells me to use that "old thing" for any purpose that I see fit. The smaller part, the mumbling antiquarian, says "don't fuss with it, it's important the way it is".
Of course, some museum conservationists do "restore" artifacts, such as swords, in some cases. In Japan, at least, there is a long tradition of keeping rather ancient artifacts in good repair and even updating them to fit new tastes, with little or no value lost due to the changes. Indeed, sometimes a fresh polish will make a sword much more valuable, as it reveals previously unseen details indicative of period, school, and maker.
On the other hand, in today's market, an "original condition" Civil War saber is worth a heck of a lot more than a reconditioned one, because of that intangible flavour of history (real or perceived). Our society is civil-war crazy, and I would be loathe to do any thing that might (further) detract from the very real economic value of my antique.
Of course, some museum conservationists do "restore" artifacts, such as swords, in some cases. In Japan, at least, there is a long tradition of keeping rather ancient artifacts in good repair and even updating them to fit new tastes, with little or no value lost due to the changes. Indeed, sometimes a fresh polish will make a sword much more valuable, as it reveals previously unseen details indicative of period, school, and maker.
On the other hand, in today's market, an "original condition" Civil War saber is worth a heck of a lot more than a reconditioned one, because of that intangible flavour of history (real or perceived). Our society is civil-war crazy, and I would be loathe to do any thing that might (further) detract from the very real economic value of my antique.
I suggest that you also read these articles:
At SwordForum.com: Conserving Antique Swords, by Mark McMorrow.
At Lion Gate Arms & Armour: The Collecting, Cleaning and Preservation of Edged Weapons, by John R. Harvey.
At SwordForum.com: Conserving Antique Swords, by Mark McMorrow.
At Lion Gate Arms & Armour: The Collecting, Cleaning and Preservation of Edged Weapons, by John R. Harvey.
I should clarify--I'm not opposed to professional-quality conservation or even, in extreme cases, restoration. But given the choice between somebody "learning on the job" or just leaving things as-is, I lean strongly toward the latter.
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