Jean, I will gladly pay for an additional weapon from a quality smith like Michael if you spring for a Danish axe or a halberd - maybe a bill. Must be forged, properly hardened, tempered, etc, like your outstanding partizan was. PM if you think this might get you/us more leverage :lol:
Here's hoping your spear gets cleared through customs soon! :toast:
-klr
| Keith L. Rogers wrote: |
| Jean, I will gladly pay for an additional weapon from a quality smith like Michael if you spring for a Danish axe or a halberd - maybe a bill. Must be forged, properly hardened, tempered, etc, like your outstanding partizan was. PM if you think this might get you/us more leverage :lol:
Here's hoping your spear gets cleared through customs soon! :toast: -klr |
Not sure what you mean by " leverage " but maybe if Michael get an order to make one of these he might make a special price for a small run of the same design after getting the " kinks out " of the prototype ? Although, at times this might mean the reverse as he might then know that the work involved is more than originally estimated ?
This sort of thing can go either way as after making something challenging making more can be easier as any problems causing the need for more work time on subsequent pieces might be solved or there could be less time/money spent in making a small production run rather than a single piece ? This may be what you had in mind about " leverage " !?
Michael did make a small production run of spear heads which is what got me started on the idea of a custom spear, so Michael might consider doing a production run if he had up-front commitments to buy ? Note that this is just speculation on my part and any such " deals " would have to be initiated by Michael as I certainly can't speak for him. ( Also conditions might change on a case by case basis. ;) )
Not making any commitments here, for now, but lets just say that " me " or another person had a design for a Danish axe, just as an example, they or I could with Michael's approval offer others to order the same design ..... just an idea. ;)
By the way, as I mentioned before I'm O.K. with Michael making more Partisan Spears identical to my design if there is a demand for it/them: Any individual pricing or small run bargain pricing is obviously completely up to Michael.
By 'leverage' i only meant perhaps a smith would be more willing to make something if he had two firm orders rather than one. I sent Michael a PM a while back that I wanted two 'viking' spears, like his previous 'number 4' if/when he was going to make more. My personal interest is 9th-11th century, hence me wanting a Danish axe, but my 20 yr daughter is crazy about halberds, so I'd go for one of those, too, for a gift.
Regarding costs - I understand and am willing to support the 'learning curve' if the item turns out to be more difficult than anticipated. (I have made dozens of custom celtic harps - ask me how I know...) I'm in this with you, Jean, if it works out for a Danish axe or halberd.
-klr
Regarding costs - I understand and am willing to support the 'learning curve' if the item turns out to be more difficult than anticipated. (I have made dozens of custom celtic harps - ask me how I know...) I'm in this with you, Jean, if it works out for a Danish axe or halberd.
-klr
| Keith L. Rogers wrote: |
| By 'leverage' i only meant perhaps a smith would be more willing to make something if he had two firm orders rather than one. I sent Michael a PM a while back that I wanted two 'viking' spears, like his previous 'number 4' if/when he was going to make more. My personal interest is 9th-11th century, hence me wanting a Danish axe, but my 20 yr daughter is crazy about halberds, so I'd go for one of those, too, for a gift.
Regarding costs - I understand and am willing to support the 'learning curve' if the item turns out to be more difficult than anticipated. (I have made dozens of custom celtic harps - ask me how I know...) I'm in this with you, Jean, if it works out for a Danish axe or halberd. -klr |
Yeah, basically what I thought you meant except I went way over the top letting my imagination think in terms of expanding on the idea or variations on the idea, but I would guess that if two or more people approached Michael for a quote on a design made for both or for a small group run of the design he might accept to do it ?
So in a simple case two people could ask for two of something to be made and negotiate a price mutually agreeable to themselves and Michael. ;)
Thanks for the ideas guys, and as always I am more then happy to listen to suggestions and try to accommodate then in my decision making. While it isn't a problem, to do multiple pieces that are the same, I don't know how eager I am to bark up that tree just yet. Multiple pieces can be make much faster, more exact, and more consistent using a modern machine shop then by forging. When I was in Finland I was talking with a blacksmith friend of mine and he said that the price per piece, if they are all to be the same, should be more then if just making a one-off. "Remember, you are a hand worker, not a machine"
Regarding the learning curve, while I still feel like I am working my way up the ladder, and I am seeing improvements in my work from project to project. Cost and learning curve shouldn't impact each other. The customer should receive a proper functioning product, for the price that the work demands, regardless of whether it is the first one, or the fifteenth one. The first attempt will always take more time, but part of the payment is the opportunity to work on a new project, and get financial compensation. If I was to make Jean's spear and have it sit around without a buyer, then all of the time invested and skills acquired are wonderful, but they don't put food on the table this month. When you acquire skills, work with a great customer, and can put food on the table, what else could you ask for?
If some individuals got together and decided they would like X amount of "_____" then there would be no financial reason to go about it this way. Plus from my end, I would much rather have all the pieces share some common elements, but have each piece be unique in it's own way since it mixes it up a little and allows for some creativity.
Regarding the learning curve, while I still feel like I am working my way up the ladder, and I am seeing improvements in my work from project to project. Cost and learning curve shouldn't impact each other. The customer should receive a proper functioning product, for the price that the work demands, regardless of whether it is the first one, or the fifteenth one. The first attempt will always take more time, but part of the payment is the opportunity to work on a new project, and get financial compensation. If I was to make Jean's spear and have it sit around without a buyer, then all of the time invested and skills acquired are wonderful, but they don't put food on the table this month. When you acquire skills, work with a great customer, and can put food on the table, what else could you ask for?
If some individuals got together and decided they would like X amount of "_____" then there would be no financial reason to go about it this way. Plus from my end, I would much rather have all the pieces share some common elements, but have each piece be unique in it's own way since it mixes it up a little and allows for some creativity.
No cost savings then as you said it's not machine made so it's not a question of programming a CNC machine and then churning out product. ;) :?:
I can see where someone could say I like this piece you just made for " Jean/Me " and can you make me one like it, but it should be an opportunity for that person and you to " personalize " the project even if just slightly as dimensions need not replicate the other piece perfectly ! In fact when things are hand made replicating dimensions can be harder than approximating " eyeballing " dimensions: One could compare making the first as " A walk in the snow " while the duplicate is like trying to walk in the exact footsteps already in the snow without making the footprints bigger or different ! This is very much a " pain " to do as anyone living in a country with snow has tried this as a child. ;) :lol:
So lets say that two people got together wanting pretty much the same thing it makes more sense to treat each as it's own custom project once work is started on each piece and each customer can add or change to the design
Only makes sense to even discuss this as being the same project Or a small run, if the pieces are all based on a single agreed upon design drawing I think ..... so at the design stage there might be commonality of design concept but on the execution stage they would default to being treated as separate projects with separate decisions made aesthetically during the making as well as different prices should one of the customer want something harder to do or more decoration, expensive materials etc ....
If there could be some savings in time or costs I can only see it happening at the early concept and design stage and the customer relations/communication would still have to be a one on one thing and not one customer making the design decisions for all !
I can see where someone could say I like this piece you just made for " Jean/Me " and can you make me one like it, but it should be an opportunity for that person and you to " personalize " the project even if just slightly as dimensions need not replicate the other piece perfectly ! In fact when things are hand made replicating dimensions can be harder than approximating " eyeballing " dimensions: One could compare making the first as " A walk in the snow " while the duplicate is like trying to walk in the exact footsteps already in the snow without making the footprints bigger or different ! This is very much a " pain " to do as anyone living in a country with snow has tried this as a child. ;) :lol:
So lets say that two people got together wanting pretty much the same thing it makes more sense to treat each as it's own custom project once work is started on each piece and each customer can add or change to the design
Only makes sense to even discuss this as being the same project Or a small run, if the pieces are all based on a single agreed upon design drawing I think ..... so at the design stage there might be commonality of design concept but on the execution stage they would default to being treated as separate projects with separate decisions made aesthetically during the making as well as different prices should one of the customer want something harder to do or more decoration, expensive materials etc ....
If there could be some savings in time or costs I can only see it happening at the early concept and design stage and the customer relations/communication would still have to be a one on one thing and not one customer making the design decisions for all !
Michael, I am going to do more reseach, but may have some interesting projects to tempt you with in the future. Good hammering!
-klr
-klr
Yippee :D , finally out of Canada Customs so now it's waiting the usual day or two for it to get from Customs to sorting centre to the delivery truck: Wasn't expecting any problems at Customs but it's always in the back of one's mind that some delay(s) might happen for errors in paperwork reasons or a bureaucratic "glitch " happening. ;) Waiting, It's all part of the fun.:p
It's like crossing the border one always seem to feel anxious or guilty even when one has nothing to hide. :eek: :wtf:
Oh, I can now type in the tracking number from memory. :( :blush: ;) :lol:
It's like crossing the border one always seem to feel anxious or guilty even when one has nothing to hide. :eek: :wtf:
Oh, I can now type in the tracking number from memory. :( :blush: ;) :lol:
Happy to hear it cleared Customs Jean!
When the lady at the post office had doubts about sending the package due to size I was saying in my mind I was thinking time to buy a Insight and start delivering my work in person.... Although one can only imagine what a scrubby looking guy in a tiny car and a huge spear would look like, and what the border patrol would think... Luckily the spear went out just fine!
When the lady at the post office had doubts about sending the package due to size I was saying in my mind I was thinking time to buy a Insight and start delivering my work in person.... Although one can only imagine what a scrubby looking guy in a tiny car and a huge spear would look like, and what the border patrol would think... Luckily the spear went out just fine!
I'm happy for you Jean, this work has received increasing attention. It seemed the wait for a birth.
Maybe it's nice because it was lived with the progress of work.
Michael, I programme with cad-cam, my works are strings of code for CNC machines.
The most creative is the design, implementation much less.
I love the hand work, you're an excellent example of this.
My compliments. :)
Ciao
Maurizio
Maybe it's nice because it was lived with the progress of work.
Michael, I programme with cad-cam, my works are strings of code for CNC machines.
The most creative is the design, implementation much less.
I love the hand work, you're an excellent example of this.
My compliments. :)
Ciao
Maurizio
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: |
| Yippee :D , finally out of Canada Customs so now it's waiting the usual day or two for it to get from Customs to sorting centre to the delivery truck: Wasn't expecting any problems at Customs but it's always in the back of one's mind that some delay(s) might happen for errors in paperwork reasons or a bureaucratic "glitch " happening. ;) Waiting, It's all part of the fun.:p
It's like crossing the border one always seem to feel anxious or guilty even when one has nothing to hide. :eek: :wtf: Oh, I can now type in the tracking number from memory. :( :blush: ;) :lol: |
... just a curious thought here, and pardon the negativity, or what may seem like an attempt to
dampen your excitement ... and maybe its just my own paranoia ...
As much as one can be a very trusting soul, I've taken the precaution in the past to not divuldge
too much information ( locations, whereabouts, what's happening etc etc ) when precious cargo
is being shipped my way. Specially when I know it might be a week or more, and not just mere
days, before the package hits my porch.
Here's crossed fingers and a prayer to all saints involved that your project finds its way into your
hands safe and sound.
( Note, this comment is NOT meant to throw dispersions on anyone. I've known other victims, and
been victimized myself ... Its just maybe worth remembering there ARE those out there who, sadly,
don't always wish us well. )
.... calling customs now... Please reroute package to Chris Artman... thanks in advance :p
| Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz wrote: |
| [
... just a curious thought here, and pardon the negativity, or what may seem like an attempt to dampen your excitement ... and maybe its just my own paranoia ... As much as one can be a very trusting soul, I've taken the precaution in the past to not divuldge too much information ( locations, whereabouts, what's happening etc etc ) when precious cargo is being shipped my way. Specially when I know it might be a week or more, and not just mere days, before the package hits my porch. Here's crossed fingers and a prayer to all saints involved that your project finds its way into your hands safe and sound. ( Note, this comment is NOT meant to throw dispersions on anyone. I've known other victims, and been victimized myself ... Its just maybe worth remembering there ARE those out there who, sadly, don't always wish us well. ) |
Well anything is possible but I would worry more about shipping accidents like a crushed shipping box than thieving of a premeditated targetted kind i.e. because of too much info given out. ;)
By the way in Montreal there are probably 1000 Thibodeau(s) in the phone book it's a bit like being named John Smith. ;) :lol:
In any case the delivery guys at Canada Post never just leave big or expensive packages at the door if one isn't home in an urban setting and they wouldn't just leave the package at the neighbours house next door which I have read happening in some sad shipping SNAFU(s).
( Edited for typos and clarety 10:51 P.M. my local time )
Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Mon 02 Nov, 2009 7:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
| Jean Thibodeau wrote: | ||
Well anything is possible but I would worry more about shipping accidents like a crushed shipping box than thieving of a premeditated targetted kind i.e. too much info given out. ;) By the way in Montreal there are probably 1000 Thibodeau(s) in the phone book it's a bit like being named John Smith. ;) :lol: In any case the delivery guys at Canada Post never just leave big or expensive packages at the door if one isn't home in an urban setting and they wouldn't just leave the package at the neighbours hose next door which I have read happening in some sad shipping SNAFU(s). |
Darn you Jean! There goes my plan to drive up to Montreal tonight to try and intercept it. :( Oh well, I guess I will just have to wait to help defend that bridge with you to see it. Either that or someday see it at a big myArmoury get together!
All kidding aside. I am looking forwards to a hands on review from you on the partisan. I am thinking of having an early glaive made and after seeing this Michael is at the top of my list. That and other reasons that will be revealed soon! :cool:
Scott
| Scott Kowalski wrote: |
|
All kidding aside. I am looking forwards to a hands on review from you on the partisan. I am thinking of having an early glaive made and after seeing this Michael is at the top of my list. That and other reasons that will be revealed soon! :cool: Scott |
It here and it exceeds the already high expectations: Looks even better " in person " than in the already great pics that Michael took for this Topic. :D :cool:
Will have some interesting things to write about it I think later tonight or in the next couple of days.
Just a teaser: The handling is superb. :D :surprised: Not that I wasn't expecting it to be good handling but it's awesome !
Anyway, Scott, if you do choose Michael to make a polearm for you it won't just be " a pretty face " it's going to handle the way you would want if your life depended on it, i.e. a real weapons grade polearm and not just a show piece ..... although it will also be aesthetically pleasing.
Anyway, didn't get much sleep last night so I have to make this short and get a few hours sleep/nap before my Staff and Polearm class tonight ...... yes, I actually train with quarterstaff as my Longsword group also offers classes with polearms.
I am glad to hear that it arrived safe and sound Jean. I am also looking forwards to hearing a detailed review of it when you have a chance.
I also have to say job well done to Michael. I look forward to seeing more of your work as time goes by. Hopefully a few pieces will end up in my collection!
Scott
I also have to say job well done to Michael. I look forward to seeing more of your work as time goes by. Hopefully a few pieces will end up in my collection!
Scott
O.K. here are my initial impressions and although fairly complete I may come back to it and add things that I may notice later or forget to mention now as there are so many ways to review this piece: Aesthetics, handling, design intelligence, tactical theoretical use and maybe other things I might forget to cover.
No pics but then go back to the pics that Micheal posted a couple of pages back as they are very representative of what I see in front of me i.e. no hidden flaws that one can see when in hand compared to the pics ..... YES, it look as this good and even BETTER in hand.
First a few statistics:
Weight: 4 Lbs 9 oz.
Total length: 82 1/2 "
Length of head + socket: 19 1/2"
Main blade length: 13 3/8"
Width of main blade at the shoulders/base: 3"
Width 2" from the point where it becomes a triangular point: 1 1/4"
Width of wings: 5 3/8"
Length of short languettes: 7 1/8"
Length long languettes: 15"
Haft diameter flat to flat: 1 1/4"
Haft diameter corner to corner octagonal section: 1 1/2"
POB: 50 " from butt end, 32 1/2" from point, just on the last inch or two of the long languettes.
Hand at the POB or just below the languettes for a little more presence seems ideal.
Wings sharp on slanted back toward the butt, convex appleseed with no secondary bevel.
Main blade is also sword like appleseed with only a hint of a secondary final sharpening bevel, VERY sharp over most of the main edge except for the first inch or so of blade above the shoulder: Only a bit less sharp and transitioning to very sharp gradually. ( Sword/paper cutting sharp, borderline hair popping sharp but with a robust edge geometry ).
Triangular point slightly less sharp for a very sturdy durable point.
Blade thickness fairly thin on the flats with a gradual convex curve to the edges, the very thick central ridge makes the blade very strong but still light for it's size.
The ridge is very thick over the cut out between the wings and the main blade, so the cut out does not represent a weakened area of the design. The corners are subtlety but definitely radiused ( No stress risers ).
The blade is overall light for it's impressive/scary size, but has some substantial meat where it needs strength and is nowhere too thin or light for heavy use.
Distal taper in both the flats of the main blade and with the central ridge, but the ridge remains stout to the triangular point.
Very robust but efficient/optimum distribution of mass where it needs to be strong but light enough and thin enough to optimize cutting and penetration.
The whole spear point makes me thinks of a well designed sword when it comes to distal taper and efficiency.
Handling is superb as it almost feels like a plain wooden staff half it's weight in motion i.e. it floats, it should be lightning fast in use.
Sharp enough that even a light drawcut would be devastating yet strong enough to be able to take heavy use.
The balance is still towards the blade side so that cuts would have real power but it's not axe like or halberd like in presence, it sort of reminds me more of a rapier in handling as a precision instrument and not a blunt force polearm.
The wings are multifunctional: The flat unsharpened front is good for parrying.
The points of the wings can act as sharpened single mace flange and should be able to pierce, hook or tear.
Hooking behind a knee, elbow or neck, side of body seems like other tactical uses it could do well.
Also, the sharpened sloped back edges could also discourage and counter a grab on the spear half by an opponent, or at least make it very risky !
The finish is uniformly flawless, all ridges/bevels are sharp and perfectly strait: Zero, ripples or waves in the finish.
Oh, and again, scary sharp. :eek: :D
The octagonal haft is nicely oiled finished and the languettes are perfectly inletted into the wood but left slightly proud but with comfortably rounded edge on the languettes. The octagonal haft gives a great feel in handling and edge orientation.
The haft seems very strong and rigid and with a nice strait wood grain.
The butt plate is also perfectly fitted and give a strong striking surface, protects the end of the haft and just plain looks great.
No pics but then go back to the pics that Micheal posted a couple of pages back as they are very representative of what I see in front of me i.e. no hidden flaws that one can see when in hand compared to the pics ..... YES, it look as this good and even BETTER in hand.
First a few statistics:
Weight: 4 Lbs 9 oz.
Total length: 82 1/2 "
Length of head + socket: 19 1/2"
Main blade length: 13 3/8"
Width of main blade at the shoulders/base: 3"
Width 2" from the point where it becomes a triangular point: 1 1/4"
Width of wings: 5 3/8"
Length of short languettes: 7 1/8"
Length long languettes: 15"
Haft diameter flat to flat: 1 1/4"
Haft diameter corner to corner octagonal section: 1 1/2"
POB: 50 " from butt end, 32 1/2" from point, just on the last inch or two of the long languettes.
Hand at the POB or just below the languettes for a little more presence seems ideal.
Wings sharp on slanted back toward the butt, convex appleseed with no secondary bevel.
Main blade is also sword like appleseed with only a hint of a secondary final sharpening bevel, VERY sharp over most of the main edge except for the first inch or so of blade above the shoulder: Only a bit less sharp and transitioning to very sharp gradually. ( Sword/paper cutting sharp, borderline hair popping sharp but with a robust edge geometry ).
Triangular point slightly less sharp for a very sturdy durable point.
Blade thickness fairly thin on the flats with a gradual convex curve to the edges, the very thick central ridge makes the blade very strong but still light for it's size.
The ridge is very thick over the cut out between the wings and the main blade, so the cut out does not represent a weakened area of the design. The corners are subtlety but definitely radiused ( No stress risers ).
The blade is overall light for it's impressive/scary size, but has some substantial meat where it needs strength and is nowhere too thin or light for heavy use.
Distal taper in both the flats of the main blade and with the central ridge, but the ridge remains stout to the triangular point.
Very robust but efficient/optimum distribution of mass where it needs to be strong but light enough and thin enough to optimize cutting and penetration.
The whole spear point makes me thinks of a well designed sword when it comes to distal taper and efficiency.
Handling is superb as it almost feels like a plain wooden staff half it's weight in motion i.e. it floats, it should be lightning fast in use.
Sharp enough that even a light drawcut would be devastating yet strong enough to be able to take heavy use.
The balance is still towards the blade side so that cuts would have real power but it's not axe like or halberd like in presence, it sort of reminds me more of a rapier in handling as a precision instrument and not a blunt force polearm.
The wings are multifunctional: The flat unsharpened front is good for parrying.
The points of the wings can act as sharpened single mace flange and should be able to pierce, hook or tear.
Hooking behind a knee, elbow or neck, side of body seems like other tactical uses it could do well.
Also, the sharpened sloped back edges could also discourage and counter a grab on the spear half by an opponent, or at least make it very risky !
The finish is uniformly flawless, all ridges/bevels are sharp and perfectly strait: Zero, ripples or waves in the finish.
Oh, and again, scary sharp. :eek: :D
The octagonal haft is nicely oiled finished and the languettes are perfectly inletted into the wood but left slightly proud but with comfortably rounded edge on the languettes. The octagonal haft gives a great feel in handling and edge orientation.
The haft seems very strong and rigid and with a nice strait wood grain.
The butt plate is also perfectly fitted and give a strong striking surface, protects the end of the haft and just plain looks great.
Oh, I forgot to mention that the spear came in it's own handcrafted wooden box with a sliding cover that could be used for storage or one could use it for display.
This box is the same in principle than the one Michael makes for the spear head I got and the one offered as a prize here for the last fund raising drive: The same but much much longer. ;) :lol:
So the attention to detail includes a sturdy and very well made shipping/storage/display box.
For those who for some unknowable reason haven't seen what I'm talking about here is the link:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=17330
Oh, can't find any flaws in the spear to nit pick even if I as inclined to nit pick.
Already thinking of what my next project with Michael might be: Thinking some form of Cinquedea with a blade similar to the spear blade i.e. very wide blade with a prominent mid ridge about 18" long ....... ;) :D
This box is the same in principle than the one Michael makes for the spear head I got and the one offered as a prize here for the last fund raising drive: The same but much much longer. ;) :lol:
So the attention to detail includes a sturdy and very well made shipping/storage/display box.
For those who for some unknowable reason haven't seen what I'm talking about here is the link:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=17330
Oh, can't find any flaws in the spear to nit pick even if I as inclined to nit pick.
Already thinking of what my next project with Michael might be: Thinking some form of Cinquedea with a blade similar to the spear blade i.e. very wide blade with a prominent mid ridge about 18" long ....... ;) :D
Michael,
It sounds like you did a great job on this project for Jean. Having seen some of the other customs on here that Jean has I know he has not only good taste but also a real feel for these things. Congratulations!
Jean,
All I can say is that you are one lucky person. I have to say that I am envious of what you have.
I also have to admit that in part because of your experience with Michael on this project that I am currently working with him on one of my own. Not a pole arm yet. That will come after he more than likely makes a large dagger,shortsword for my wife! No, I am having him work on a sword for me. :D
Scott
It sounds like you did a great job on this project for Jean. Having seen some of the other customs on here that Jean has I know he has not only good taste but also a real feel for these things. Congratulations!
Jean,
All I can say is that you are one lucky person. I have to say that I am envious of what you have.
I also have to admit that in part because of your experience with Michael on this project that I am currently working with him on one of my own. Not a pole arm yet. That will come after he more than likely makes a large dagger,shortsword for my wife! No, I am having him work on a sword for me. :D
Scott
| Scott Kowalski wrote: |
| Michael,
Jean, All I can say is that you are one lucky person. I have to say that I am envious of what you have. I am having him work on a sword for me. :D Scott |
Well. thanks for the kind words but I think it depends on how you want to define luck ! Luck in being able to afford having a few very special pieces made every year I would say yes, but there is no luck involved except in having found some great makers like Michael and a few select others to make some of my designs and many times improving on the designs in ways I didn't expect. ;) :)
If it was only luck to " blame/credit " I guess a spear like this would show up at my door because the shipping of someone else's project got " FUBAR-ed " and I had nothing to do like design it, order it and pay for it. ;) :D :cool: ( Joking in case it isn't obvious ).
Oh, and my dagger project has been " initiated " and Michael is doing some design and research about it: This time I'm only giving general specifications and suggestions and going the No to very little micromanaging route and letting Michael work out the details and aesthetics.
Scott let us know how your project is going or have Michael start a Topic on the making of your piece. ;)
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