Posts: 145 Location: Sweden
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 1:16 pm
| Bill Tsafa wrote: |
Thanks Michael. Those are the texts are the ones I had in mind. When I hear "use the entire strength of your body" and "always fence using all your strength" that is a pretty open and shut case to me. That is seems to say flat out use your legs to power the strikes. |
To fence is not to just to strike. The old meaning of the word fencing is the same as fighting.
It means to fight with all your strenght.
And strenght is also not just power. It´s strenght of technic as well.
So it roughly means "To fight with everything that you are good at. (Power, skill, timing etc)".
Posts: 599 Location: Brooklyn, NY
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 1:26 pm
To fence (fight) with only your arms is an absence of power. The text is clearly advising against that.
Posts: 1,032 Location: New York
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 1:55 pm
| Anders Nilsson wrote: |
| Bill Tsafa wrote: |
Thanks Michael. Those are the texts are the ones I had in mind. When I hear "use the entire strength of your body" and "always fence using all your strength" that is a pretty open and shut case to me. That is seems to say flat out use your legs to power the strikes. |
To fence is not to just to strike. The old meaning of the word fencing is the same as fighting.
It means to fight with all your strenght.
And strenght is also not just power. It´s strenght of technic as well.
So it roughly means "To fight with everything that you are good at. (Power, skill, timing etc)". |
Hi Anders,
That's one take on it, but not one I agree with.
Here, he is more specific:
| Quote: |
| Note, this means that when you come to him in the Zufechten, use the entire strength of your body for what-ever you intend to execute, and strike while approaching to his head or body and keep your point before his face or chest. This way he cannot change through before your point. |
He is saying that when you approach him and strike, use the entire strength of your body. Not the strength of your entire body, the entire strength of your body. The sequence is important here.
I honestly have no idea why people are so opposed this this concept, assuming you are, can you explain?
Posts: 90 Location: New Zealand
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 1:56 pm
| Michael Edelson wrote: |
btw...you and I seem to have done the impossible! We've killed the SCA topic! Hooray for us! :) :) |
Sorry Michael... it's like a bruise, I can't resist prodding it to make sure it still hurts :D
Anyway, (and hopefully this will be my final post on this ;) ), I think there was a bit of a misunderstanding between you and me during the earlier unpleasantness (once again, sorry about that). I wasn't actually (intentionally) advocating always moving tip first- I was advocating always moving sword first. Quite a different thing, as you have also pointed out in this thread :)
Also, I'm only talking fractionally first- I try to have the terminus of strike, arm movement, torso movement and step all at approximately the same time. Unfortunately I don't currently have any video of my action to show you; overall I don't think we're miles apart anyway, from watching the way you cut (not that I think we are in complete agreement still, of course). If you look back you'll see what I was originally most against was moving the sword last.
Posts: 90 Location: New Zealand
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 1:59 pm
... and, the conversation has moved on, so- back to your regularly scheduled programming :D
Posts: 409 Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 2:08 pm
| Bill Tsafa wrote: |
I saw it a few times throughout the video but the combination at 1:02 to 1:04 is a good view of a typical SCA combination. In the video above the guy in white does very typical SCA rotations through his combination's. Like it or not, many shots in your video are used in SCA (heavy). It might look a little different because we do the same shots with more power... They also might look a little different when done with a shield... these are distortions. Take away the shield and the high calibration and it will look the same.
Here is a drill we do to develop that shot (.01 to .13)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF3fDo60fs4
You might want to try the drill if you don't already do it. |
I take it back, it does look like really crappy 18th Century Slingstick with no foot work. :wtf:
This is how the sword and targe is used in Highland Broadsword
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J19GD-wfhg Note, not like SCA Heavy Fighting
Foot work is a major part of Highland Broadsword and we have a different power generator than you use to power our blows.
While you are right in the fact that the video shown guards and strikes similar to a backsword system... that lack of footwork and staying in measure is just plain silly for a martial art.
Oh that's right, it isn't.
Now there are martial sports that do this. 19th century Scottish Single stick pub rules were fought with no foot work, downward blows to the head were the only legal strike and the winner was declared when he made the other person bleed profusely from the top of the head. Since I blew my knee this summer I did fight such a bout at WMAW 09. I thought it was like watching paint dry, but some folks liked it. :eek:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Stoccata#p/u/9/wxtCT7W4qIs
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Posts: 793 Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 4:07 pm
| David Teague wrote: |
Ah... er... :wtf:
No.
I've watched SCA heavy fighting a number of times over the years and it doesn't look like Regimental Highland Broadsword nor does it look like Highland Broadsword to me.
Why do I know this? Because I teach 18th century Highland Broadsword and have been studying the form for 14 years now.
Here is a highlight vid of myself and my fellow Alaskan instructor taking on all comers at the WMAW 07 with our Highland Broadsword techniques. Please point out where our bouts look like SCA heavy fighting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMySPuCN7Yc
Cheers,
DT |
Hi David. All of it except the few draw cuts could be SCA heavy fighting straight off, especially in the lower calibration kingdoms. I imagine you've not seen much SCA heavy combat with single sword or small shileds, or only seen poor level fighting which is not the sum of all we do.
I do hope you don't take it as an insult to be compared with heavy combat, it's really intended as a great compliment I very seldom give. Too many within WMA I think view the SCA in an undeserved or overly negative way just because it's "SCA" with all that baggage, had it been the very same under another name you'd probably cheer us on and say we do the same things and give us some friendly pointers. We aren't competing with you, we're simply trying to be the same, or sort of within our own rules and social circuit.
I'd be very happy to spar with you if you're ever in Stockholm, Sweden. I'm sure you can teach me some mean moves and I have a lot I'd like to discuss while comparing techniques. For instance I see you too use the back edge "wrap" we hold so dear. I haven't seen many others outside the SCA do that.
Also, don't get stuck in with footwork being different. Yes, some peoples' are and some you'd see are not that different. And some practice forms are for sticky feet, with no stepping for those rare occasions you're stuck, i.e. in a line of battle, holding a doorway or in very close quarters in the "closet" beyond said doorway. ;)
Like the song BTW.
Cheers.
Last edited by Johan Gemvik on Thu 19 Nov, 2009 6:11 pm; edited 3 times in total
Posts: 599 Location: Brooklyn, NY
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 4:13 pm
| David Teague wrote: |
While you are right in the fact that the video shown guards and strikes similar to a backsword system... that lack of footwork and staying in measure is just plain silly for a martial art.
|
David, if you took some time to study SCA fighting rather then just outright dismissing you would not make it so easy for me to find counter examples to what you say.
Duke Gregors footwork, timing and distancing is impeccable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IO5qLGsE24
Very short video so I don't confuse you.
.20 - Two fencing retreats to maintain distance.
.24- A slope step and a zwerchhau.
What is not obvious to the untrained eye is that mid swing Duke Gregor dropped his sword as to fake a leg shot. His opponent triggered off that and dropped his shield to block the leg. His opponent also brought his sword over to block his head in anticipation of a possible low-rising shot. What he did not anticipate was the slope step that changed the angle and allowed the shot to go in past the defense. All that happened in two seconds.
You can't just look at a video of two new SCA fighters and say the SCA does not use footwork, timing or distance any more then you can look at a video of two new WMA fighters as a general example.
| David Teague wrote: |
| I take it back, it does look like really crappy 18th Century Slingstick with no foot work. WTF?! |
Then of course there is the other issue which you refereed to in HRG Prizefight WMAW 2007 with relation to timing, distancing and footwork. Its not so easy when you opponent is intentional trying to break those things down to defeat you. It does not matter how good you are with your footwork, unless you become the absolute best, there will always be someone better who can trip you up.
Last edited by Bill Tsafa on Thu 19 Nov, 2009 4:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posts: 28 Location: Stafford/Fairfax, VA
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 4:52 pm
I could be mistaken(it was difficult for me to tell from the angle) but it looked like he hit with the true edge or maybe even the flat. Honestly I don't know much at all about one handed swordsmanship, but as far as longswords go, a zwerch from the right is with the false edge.
If it was a zwerch, then my bad.:) haha
Posts: 599 Location: Brooklyn, NY
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 4:59 pm
Yes, he strikes his right side Zwerches with the true edge at range and back edge when closer to get the tip on target. Reason it may look like it hit flat to you is because it was a low-riser. The shot started off going down toward the leg... then turned up to go to the head mid flight. When you see it hit it is moving up diagonally rather then going in straight.
Posts: 650 Location: Lacey, Wa US
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 5:16 pm
That is poetry in motion, Tsafa. Thanks for sharing. Fortunately for me, and unfortunately for my head and legs, that is the level of skill of quite a few fighters in my area. That kind of skill does not come by accident, by brawling, or by lucky discovery. The mechanics are universal but require instruction and study.
Posts: 793 Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 5:53 pm
| Michael Edelson wrote: |
| I honestly have no idea why people are so opposed this this concept |
I think you explain this in an outstanding way.
Yes, only using hip won't give any real force, I used to do that as a beginner and it just didn't do anything except move the hip around. You have to use the entire body together, as a wound up spring, or a wave motion each muscle group riding the previous muscle group in sequence. I've noticed that kids that use sticks to swing usually have this movement naturally so maybe it's something we have from nature that if it goes unused we forget. Probably a good reason to start prospective knights practicing at a young age.
For some techniques you can even lock the body in a would up state and then release it for very fast techniques. Like a wound up spring, or a drawn bow. I've heard this is also used by some Sumo wrestlers crouching for the pounce and also used for sprinter athletes in the start blocks. Typically it's also a higher level kung-fu technique to use with fast striking and kicking.
Posts: 793 Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 6:06 pm
Double post. Sorry, I'll fill it in with something else.
Posts: 793 Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 6:34 pm
| P. Cha wrote: |
| I really have to call bunk on this. I have trained with and talked with people who started the society and nothing of this sort happened (I went to UC berkeley, the home of the start of the SCA and so I have primary sources on this). Duke bellitrix who is the grand-daddy of SCA combat of today did not do this either...and considering he´s one of the people who trained me, I should know. You have a nice theory up...but once again, what´s your source? Mine are primary sources, they are the people that were actually there when the SCA started and those that shaped SCA combat. |
I'll tell you this this story again.
I had this long talk one evening with Duke Paul last summer about this subject. I'm summing it up some and may not use the exact words, I hope he'll forgive me but this is the converstation in short version:
Is it historical in any way? He says as you do, no, it's modern technique. I argue But! It's so similar to saber fencing techniques, especially the older styles, he says yeah but isn't that modern? And I say yes but the basis for it is historical, must be from somehwere earlier. He's silent for a moment then he says there was a system in place when I started back in AS 4, or 5. He didin't know where it came from.
It ended with him being quite intrigued and asking me to research parallells with existing historical systems. I'm doing so and the Regimental Highland Broadsword fits so well it's like nothing else I've seen out there. 80% compatible, maybe much more. Uses the very same feints and combinations I use in Heavy combat, but the system is more structured of course. Better perhaps in a way we can be too if we learn from it. Or re-learn as the case may be.
Let's go back to that thing, with the system in place.
Now, there was a tournament at AS 1. I don't believe it was anything like a complete system yet though, mostly just fun and games. Then there's AS 2, where there are several pictures of fighters in full or partial fencer gear both with and withot modern fencing saber or epee, as well as some with wooden swords. Fencing gear isn't something people just have lying around if they never used it, it's too expensive to just have for fun. So likely somebody using it had done some form of modern fencing, or knew someone who did or had at one time. Hopefully I'll be able to dig up some pictures I saw of this a year or two ago.
In short, at AS 2 there were some people with modern fencing backround present in the tournament, and would fight in the way they'd been taught. Even a mildly experienced competitive fencer facing a wooden broadsword would most likely switch to saber that has parries for cuts. And would most likely strike back with a cut, especially against someone not wearing a fencing jacket for protection from the saber breaking from a lunge. For this the cuts are much safer. Given that said fencer was any good at all he'd likely win easily against any untrained opponent holding a swordlike object for the fist time in their lives, and win the day. And so basic SCA technique #1 was born: "The forehand". Or at least it's one possibility. I'm guessing you see where this is going now, with the origin of modern saber.
Then we have AS 5 - there is a system in place. It's not perfect but it's likely a good start. Did that happen by pure trial and error for 3 short years, probably more like 3 tournaments total once a year with some minor training in between, without using a fully functional and rather ingenius broadsword system, complete with shield and even polearm that's there to be found, right in the origin of the saber techniques used in AS 2.
Yes, of course a lot of people added to the system over time, with various martial arts, and yes, fighting is different today, or can be. But at the same time, whenever I fight single stick it's the same basics of saber right there. Add a small shield and what is it? Similar to something existing, not exactly the same but rather close for simple coincidence.
So, how likely is it really that the fencers who were evidently there and participating in the tourney wouldn't use their trained technique or that no one watching would pick up on it back in that tournament in AS2? I'd say the chance of that is pretty slim.
Last edited by Johan Gemvik on Fri 20 Nov, 2009 9:04 am; edited 8 times in total
Posts: 1,032 Location: New York
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 6:36 pm
| Johan Gemvik wrote: |
| Michael Edelson wrote: | | I honestly have no idea why people are so opposed this this concept |
I think you explain this in an outstanding way.
Yes, only using hip won't give any real force, I used to do that as a beginner and it just didn't do anything except move the hip around. You have to use the entire body together, as a wound up spring, or a wave motion each muscle group riding the previous muscle group in sequence. I've noticed that kids that use sticks to swing usually have this movement naturally so maybe it's something we have from nature that if it goes unused we forget. Probably a good reason to start prospective knights practicing at a young age. |
Thanks. :)
I too think it starts out being natural...I see my seven year old daughter doing this when I try to teach her how to use a sword (her idea). But boy, is it hard to relearn if you forget.
As far as tip first, sword first, etc. vs this natural motion, if you have to do a frame by frame or watch a video ten times over (as I had to do with Matt's) to see if it's the point or the hilt entering first...well, honestly, don't you see the problem with that?
"Wait, Bob, can you attack me again, slower this time? I wasn't sure if there was a tactical vulnerability for me to exploit that time. What's that you say? My head is split in two? Oh, gee, bummer." :)
| Quote: |
For some techniques you can even lock the body in a would up state and then release it for very fast techniques. Like a wound up spring, or a drawn bow. I've heard this is also used by some Sumo wrestlers crouching for the pounce and also used for sprinter athletes in the start blocks. Typically it's also a higher level kung-fu technique to use with fast striking and kicking. |
According to plyometrics, which I've recently started paying attention to, that sort of prestretch is only good for a second or so, then the advantage goes away.
Try this. Bend your knees and immediately jump up. Notice how high you get and how nice it feels. Now bend your knees to the same degree and freeze. Count to five or ten or whatever. Now jump. Notice the difference? You'll find you're a lot stiffer, slower and you don't get nearly as high with the same effort.
This is, again, something every kid intuitively knows, but most adults forget.
Posts: 1,032 Location: New York
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 6:51 pm
Hey Tsafa,
That Duke Gregor guy looks really good! You should have shown me that video back when we were having our "SCA sucks! No it doesn't!" argument. :)
Posts: 237 Location: Arlington, VA
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 7:07 pm
| Michael Edelson wrote: |
Hey Tsafa,
That Duke Gregor guy looks really good! You should have shown me that video back when we were having our "SCA sucks! No it doesn't!" argument. :) |
Ironically, that was in false time ;)
Steve
Posts: 1,032 Location: New York
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 7:49 pm
| Steven Reich wrote: |
| Michael Edelson wrote: | Hey Tsafa,
That Duke Gregor guy looks really good! You should have shown me that video back when we were having our "SCA sucks! No it doesn't!" argument. :) |
Ironically, that was in false time ;)
Steve |
Which, as you know, makes me love it that much more. :)
Posts: 34 Location: Perth, Western Australia
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 8:35 pm
| Michael Edelson wrote: |
As far as tip first, sword first, etc. vs this natural motion, if you have to do a frame by frame or watch a video ten times over (as I had to do with Matt's) to see if it's the point or the hilt entering first...well, honestly, don't you see the problem with that?
"Wait, Bob, can you attack me again, slower this time? I wasn't sure if there was a tactical vulnerability for me to exploit that time. What's that you say? My head is split in two? Oh, gee, bummer." :)
|
Personally, I think one reason we are told to keep moving and not stay static in a guard is to help hide 'telegraphs'. Very easy to pick up any motion from a stationary target, but much hard to differentiate (threatening) motion in a target that is constantly fluid. You can even incorporate feint like motion into your movement to see if you can draw a response.
I still like to train for the high end opponent though. Just because most people can't pick something up, doesn't mean no-one can. It may not be a conscious thing either, little things here and their can trigger off your threat alarms unconsciously.
I'm not putting this out as a hypothetical case either, there are people out there that can pick these things up. Also, it's a lot harder to pick these things up on a video from a third person perspective, than it is when you are fighting them.
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