Chad brings up a good point regarding the construction method used by Albion in their production lines, and by Peter J. in his custom work.

The peening/riveting of the tang is one small step in the process. Before that happens the components are tightly wedged together. The riveting is actually only supplying a small amount of the work in holding the assembly together. After the whole thing is assembled there's no way it's coming apart. I think you'd have to intentionally destroy the piece to do it. IMHO this is the superiority of this construction method: no one element is taking the entire load of holding the assembly together. In the case of a compression assembly the entire stress of holding the components together is on that rivet, nut, threaded pommel, etc. This kind of assembly can obviously work as it was commonly used with later period swords like rapiers, basket hilts, sabres, etc. It's obviously used with success by makers like Rob and Gus Trim. It just isn't my preferred method for medieval swords.

I have a question regarding this style of pommel nut which I do not think has yet been addressed. I must say that the recessed/countersunk nut Mr. Miller employs does wonders for the appearance of this type of assembly, but I wonder how easily it is tightened and perhaps more importantly, loosened, without marring the nut or pommel finish.

That is to say, that the very feature which makes it look good - being less visible - also would serve to make it difficult to grip with most tools, especially with its rounded features. Is there something I'm not seeing, or is simply hand-torqued? Has any sort of pin/prong, hook, or castellated wrench-style tool been considered as a means to take off/put on the nut? This would probably kill some of the aesthetics, but if takedown is an objective it might serve to more easily allow that.

-Eric

I have two swords made by rob,
i have other swords forged and stock removal that feature the hilt construction methods mentioned,just as many makers doing it one way or the other,some makers will let you have your preffered method,
as said when done properly,as robs are,problems dont arise,
when done badly,it doesnt matter which method is used, caks kak,
i speak to rob quite alot and it wasnt long ago he was considering destruction tests of stock over forged,but it comes down to costs,no one wants to spend x amount of hours making a sword just to destroy so others can read the results and think,hmm interesting,
maybe myArmoury could get a blade of each type at cost or donated and do the testing as a feature one month, :cool:
i know from reading here and there the stock-forged argument seems never ending,so,,,,,,,,,,,,

Phew,you go to work for a day and theres a lot been happening here! the general consensus points towards the method of production and skill used as being the main contributory factor in the equation.I have hot peened tangs before on a couple of pieces,but i had not fitted the components well enough to start with so it was not satisfactory for me,thats been part of my learning curve,so i have chosen this way to be sure that i know the tang is still in a soft annealed state,i would imagine there must be a fair amount of stress placed on the threaded end of the tang,so i use a long recessed nut to share the load on the thread.
I do have one question for those who use heat on the tang,when you say that it is annealed after peening,could anyone elaborate.Obviously you cant anneal simply by applying heat from a torch,as it requires a considerable amount of slow heat soaking to normalise the steel again,how can that be achieved without heating the entire pommel assembly,which would in turn bleed heat into the blade itself?in my limited experience of peening i found that the steel was work hardened and brittle at this point,i could not see a way of softening anything other than the outer skin of the steel,i must be missing something.There is a considerable amount of difference between the material used for the original blades and the homogenous steels that we use today.
I really like the way that the Albion swords are put together and wrapped,it makes a lot of sense and is obviously a time proven way of assembling the components (look at the huge amount of mediaeval swords with pommel and cross intact and uncompromised) I will have to try again, or at least give the customer the choice.
Me? i like the idea of breaking a sword down and changing the cross,the grip,the pommel,My father was a Gunsmith,so i loved the old cased shotguns,all the components in a box that you snapped together .

The way I hot peen the protruding tang is like this:

BTW I use a steel that is similar to EN 45 as my normal mono steel. It is a medium alloy steel: about 0,6 %C plus some silica, some manganese and just a tad chrome (3% or so. Far from stainless, but helps in hardenability) It´s called SIS 2090 and is a deep hardening spring steel used for heavy impact leaf springs and rock drills. Not the ideal steel for kitchen knives, but very good for swords. With careful heat treat it is easy to get 58 HRC in the edge together with impressive recilience: just about impossible to break during any reasonable abuse...
In the text book this steel is not really supposed to behave like this nor react well to the temperatures I use, but I have found it reacts very favourably to low temp forging and repeated normalizations, low soak temp (800 degrees C) in austenization and low tempering (3 times 30 min at 250 degrees C)
As it is deep hardening, requiring slower cooling and still forming martensite, it is important to be aware of temperature when making local heats as during peening of the rivet.
It is still quick enough in transformation that perfectly satisfactory normalizations can be achieved by gas forge or gas torch: just do not overheat or every previous effort will be wasted.

1) Fit cross and pommel carefully to the tang so that by a mild tap the pommel is wedged in place. It should sit so you can hold the pommel between thumb and index finger and the blade will hang supported by friction alone. When the pommel is then tapped more forcibly in place by a hammer it will be seated very firmly in place. You will have to strike it loose with a hammer...
I save pressing the guard in place until after I´ve riveted the tang as the striking of the rivet can loosen the guard again. I save that good friction pinch to the last moment before I mount the grip...
2) The pommel has a countersunk area around the protruding rivet-shank or a rivet block to give room for the rivet to expand below the surface. Riveting flush against a flat top produces a thin rivet head (to be avoided!).
3) A gas torch (oxy-acetylen) is used to heat the protruding tang. I adjust the flame so I get a good solid heat but not so much that I risk overheating too easily. I keep the flame in place even as I hammer the protruding end (striking through the flame) and I adjust the heat slightly above austenizing heat (I think this is a critical detail for sucess). In this temperature there is little risk for grain growth and there will be no stress build up from plastic deformation.
4) As I work the rivet down into the countersinking, or shaping it to a forged protruding rivet head (pyramid or domed) I gradually apply the heat more carefully to make sure I am at austenizing or slightly below when I finish. Dull red is where I want to work at this stage. Very little plastic deformation is now done, only adjusting of shape with very light blows.
5) I now let the rivet cool from brownish red down to black without applying heat at all. As it cools I sometimes use lighter and lighter blows with the hammer, tapping carefully away but usually not as it will be adjusted afterwards to final shape by filing. If I use the hammer at this stage, I use very light blows: only tapping very gently to adjust the odd corner or dimple.
6) I now reapply heat on the rivet head. The pommel is now rather hot in the area around the rivet: brown or blue is not uncommon, but this is not necessary. If possible you can work so quickly that the pommel does not heat up that much, but I usually get this heat when I am finished.
I brush the flame over the rivet head to normalize it several times. It does not take a long soak or hold time and it is possible to see the transition from austenite to pearlite from the irridicense (right word?) as it cools from rea to brown back to red and down to black. I repeat this three or four times. If I am really nit picking I test with a magnet to see I get into the transformation temp.
This step is not really necessary if you have been careful with temperature during shaping. If the last steps are made at around and below aus-temp there will be a normalizing during the last shaping. I still usually reapply heat, just to be sure, if nothing else to make sure there has been no hardening of any part of the rivet head.
7) Lastly I file the rivethead flush to the top of the pommel/rivet block or fine shape a sculpted raised rivet. By doing this I can check if I have any hard spots left in the rivet.
The hardening you can sometimes experience is from the pommel cooling the rivet fast enough to result in martensite. Hardened spots tend to stand out as glassy areas where the file does not quite bite. If so, I go back and anneal again using dull red heat. This can be difficult if the rivet is totally contersunk. In those cases it is even more important to control temp during shaping.

This method has proven very dependable to me.
The trick is to avoid high temps while doing the riveting and going back afterwards to normalize. It is also a good idea to do a thorough normalizing of the tang before fitting the components of the hilt. Thereby an ideal structure is established even before the riveting is done.
Working with a gas torch is effective as it is easy to control the application and amount of heat.

Fitting the components before final mounting is a critical element. This minimizes the need for "good old ultra violence" while peening the rivet. ;) :D :cool:

A finished example of Peters work.
[ Linked Image ]

Awesome post Peter!

Quote:

it is possible to see the transition from austenite to pearlite from the irridicense (right word?

I think you were looking for "recalescence", but I'll bet that one doesn't translate over very well ;)

Jeez, you must have your shop really dark to see that....

This topic has been promoted into a Spotlight Topic.

Thanks for that explanation Peter,
will have to try that method some time,it looks great on the finished pommel too.
Now then.....wheres that gas torch....hmm :D

Wow! I never thought the thread would turn into to this. This is awesome!