A question regarding stock construction of Scottish snaphaunce and flintlock pistols...
I know some of the earlier varieties, such as the lemon butt, were brass, and I assume this was cast. However, does anyone know how the steel stocked types were made? Were they solid, or partially plate over a frame?
Cheers
Tim Harris
| Tim Harris wrote: |
| A question regarding stock construction of Scottish snaphaunce and flintlock pistols...
I know some of the earlier varieties, such as the lemon butt, were brass, and I assume this was cast. However, does anyone know how the steel stocked types were made? Were they solid, or partially plate over a frame? Cheers Tim Harris |
Tim..
The iron guns were made from flattened iron sheets hammered into shape over forms. There were a number of operations involved in doing this. Certain parts, like the scrolls, were brazed onto the main body of the pistol. It is very difficult to find the places where these parts were joined on the guns, which illustrates just how skilled the craftsmen were who made them.
The forend of the stock (the rounded area) was forged around a mandrel, which is a rounded form. The barrels were probably made of flattened strips of iron wrapped around a mandrel with the edges forged together until they were heat welded. The gunsmith shop at Colonial Williamsburg, VA has made barrels using a similar process, but instead of winding strips around the mandrel they hammer forge skelps - long flat pieces of iron - around a mandrel. That technique probably produces a stronger barrel, but the pistols made in Scotland were subject to much lower pressures when fired so the winding technique produced a barrel of adequate strength. Once the barrel was forged the mandrel was removed and the barrel opened up with a boring tool. It was then polished and brought to its final caliber. The exteriors of the barrels were often turned and filed for decorative puropses.
While I think most brass guns were cast, it is possible to shape brass around forms much as you do with iron. You mention lemon butts. The brass and iron lemon butt stocks were by brazing together two halfs of shaped metal. The heart butt was made in the same manner
It should be noted that, in spite of the general belief today, the majority of iron-stocked pistols were blued, not polished bright. The reason these guns are found in bright condition these days is that they were overcleaned and consequently the finish was removed. However, a number of 17th and 18th century pieces have been found with traces of bluing and the costume pistols of the 19th century have retained most of their finish.
Scottish pistols from the 17th and 18th centuries are some of the most beautiful firearms in existence today. They reflect a high standard of craftmanship in their construction and decoration. Fortunate is the individual or museum which owns one or more.
Alba gu brath
Tim,
I have many times wondered how those great works of art were produced, yet never asket anyone how! Thank you for coming up with this question. :)
Lin,
Thank you for that interesting and informative post. It makes a lot of sence brazing together the lemon- and heart-shaped butts. Just like the pommels on some of the early basket hilts...
Cheers,
Henrik
I have many times wondered how those great works of art were produced, yet never asket anyone how! Thank you for coming up with this question. :)
Lin,
Thank you for that interesting and informative post. It makes a lot of sence brazing together the lemon- and heart-shaped butts. Just like the pommels on some of the early basket hilts...
Cheers,
Henrik
Lin,
Thank you very much for the quality information. I think I have my long-term, grinder's broken/out of fuel downtime project.
Very long term I suspect. I love the lines of the lemon-butts, and for some reason, the idea of a pair with left and right-hand locks appeals.
Unfortunately, comprehensive as it was, your info raises another question: was the forend made seperately from the rest of the stock and brazed on?
I ought to warn you, I will probably be asking idiot questions about lock minutiae some time. Speaking of which... was the lemon butt style restricted to snaphaunce locks?
Cheers
Tim Harris
PS: Henrik, thanks for your thanks!
Thank you very much for the quality information. I think I have my long-term, grinder's broken/out of fuel downtime project.
Very long term I suspect. I love the lines of the lemon-butts, and for some reason, the idea of a pair with left and right-hand locks appeals.
Unfortunately, comprehensive as it was, your info raises another question: was the forend made seperately from the rest of the stock and brazed on?
I ought to warn you, I will probably be asking idiot questions about lock minutiae some time. Speaking of which... was the lemon butt style restricted to snaphaunce locks?
Cheers
Tim Harris
PS: Henrik, thanks for your thanks!
| Quote: |
| Lin Robinson
While I think most brass guns were cast, it is possible to shape brass around forms much as you do with iron |
Lin, the brass frames were shaped around a solid form like the iron ones. Although some might have been cast. But it might also make them too heavy. The butts could be either cast or were made in two pieces on a form then brazed as Thomas suspected Not much different than making a powder flask.
The sheet frame was made in large sections and carefully hammered using a solid pistol form. then brazed or soldered using heated firebrick. The lemon or heartbutt was added after the initial frame was made. If a ramshorn, the form had the scallop already shaped for the "horns"/"scrolls" to be brazed or soldered on. Then drilled for the ventpick to be carried (which also served as the turn screw to loosen the ramrod from it's holder inside the forearm. (ramrod end was threaded and the holder was a plate or handmade nut brazed or soldered inside).
Laurie...
Thanks for the clarification. What I meant to say, and should probably proofread more thoroughly before I hit the submit button, was that the lemon butt and heart butt portions of the stock were brazed together from two pieces and the finished product was then brazed to the stock proper. I can see how what I wrote could be miscontstrued. The hearts and lemons could be cast as well but, as you point out, a solid cast piece is much heavier than one hammered out of sheet. I suspect that the old gunmakers knew how to make hollow cast pieces as well, but their craft probably dictated hammering out most components.
Are you producing guns? I am always on the lookout for anyone making Scottish pieces and especially firearms. There are not many. I have made the acquaintance of a fellow who is making Scotitsh national long guns. I recently pruchased a 17th century style rifle from him and am very pleased.
The forend was, I believe, integral with the rest of the stock. Laurie...do you agree?
Tim...
As far as the locks go the snaphaunce, which was invented on the continent, was in use in Scotland long after the French lock had taken hold elsewhere. I suspect that all lemon butt pistols were originally made with snaphaunce locks. Keep in mind that there are a few guns that have had their original locks replaced so you may run across a lemon butt with a later style of lock, but I have not personally seen one. Something I have recently learned from my friend who builds the Scottish rifles is that snaphaunce locks were occasionally modified by welding a pan cover to the frizzen, creating what might be called a flintlock. The slliding pan cover and internal mechanism would have been removed in this case. The rifle I bought from him has this conversion. I have not found an original Scottish-made example of this, but there are a number of continental versions.
Hope this helps.
Thanks for the clarification. What I meant to say, and should probably proofread more thoroughly before I hit the submit button, was that the lemon butt and heart butt portions of the stock were brazed together from two pieces and the finished product was then brazed to the stock proper. I can see how what I wrote could be miscontstrued. The hearts and lemons could be cast as well but, as you point out, a solid cast piece is much heavier than one hammered out of sheet. I suspect that the old gunmakers knew how to make hollow cast pieces as well, but their craft probably dictated hammering out most components.
Are you producing guns? I am always on the lookout for anyone making Scottish pieces and especially firearms. There are not many. I have made the acquaintance of a fellow who is making Scotitsh national long guns. I recently pruchased a 17th century style rifle from him and am very pleased.
The forend was, I believe, integral with the rest of the stock. Laurie...do you agree?
Tim...
As far as the locks go the snaphaunce, which was invented on the continent, was in use in Scotland long after the French lock had taken hold elsewhere. I suspect that all lemon butt pistols were originally made with snaphaunce locks. Keep in mind that there are a few guns that have had their original locks replaced so you may run across a lemon butt with a later style of lock, but I have not personally seen one. Something I have recently learned from my friend who builds the Scottish rifles is that snaphaunce locks were occasionally modified by welding a pan cover to the frizzen, creating what might be called a flintlock. The slliding pan cover and internal mechanism would have been removed in this case. The rifle I bought from him has this conversion. I have not found an original Scottish-made example of this, but there are a number of continental versions.
Hope this helps.
| Quote: |
| The forend was, I believe, integral with the rest of the stock. Laurie...do you agree? |
If I remember right, ...yes.
I sent you a PM in regards to your other question. I agree, there are very few involved making these as they are beautiful.
Great info Lin ! .
Is there any source in particular you can recommend ?
Thanks .
Pat
Is there any source in particular you can recommend ?
Thanks .
Pat
| Patrick Maclaine wrote: |
| Great info Lin ! .
Is there any source in particular you can recommend ? Thanks . Pat |
Books devoted to Scottish Firearms are rare, but there are a few. I highly recommend "The Scottish Pistol - Its History, Manufacture and Design" by Martin Kelvin. This is a well-written, nicely illustrated book. Unfortunately it is currently out-of-print. I was lucky enough to find a copy at an online bookseller after waiting six months for Amazon to cough one up. They are out there, but be prepared to pay a substantial price.
The Museum Restoration Service published a series of paperbacks on the subject of historical arms over the last 40 plus years. Some of these books contained articles on Scottish weaponry and several were devoted to particular arms, including guns. These may be on the forum booklist. If not, they can be found elsewhere on line. They are available occasionally from Unicorn, Ltd., (my publisher) which is where I bought my copies over the years. Unicorn also offers Drummond's book on CD ROM.
I hope this helps.
| Lin Robinson wrote: |
| I have made the acquaintance of a fellow who is making Scotitsh national long guns. I recently pruchased a 17th century style rifle from him and am very pleased. |
Lin,
Could you please share the name and contact information for this maker. I would be interested in seeing photos of the piece he made for you if you have any to post.
Chris
I am trying to get a good copy of a silver. plated pistol found in Mull.
Thak you for sharing all this useful info Lin.
Thak you for sharing all this useful info Lin.
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