I've always liked the Wallace Collection ballock dagger set. I'm actually thinking about having a set made that would be somewhat loosely based on it.

Here's my question: Is this dagger (or ballock daggers of its era c. 1450) more of a civilian weapon than a military one? The blade is over 10 inches long, which might be long for a civilian weapon. Looking at effigies and brasses, rondel daggers seem to be pretty popular for military folks. It's actually not easy to find ballock daggers represented after say 1425 or so.

Likely to depend on region as well as time period. "Arms & Armor of the Medieval Knight " shows a Flemish or German ballock dagger c 1550 with a scabbard, by-knife and pricker. Some dudgeon daggers bear a strong resemblance to ballocks and the dirk is widely considered to be a later variant, both of these were also popular in regions where German blades were in high demand in later periods, so it may be that it was popular longer in northern Europe. Rondels seem to me to be much more represented on effigies though, from what I have seen (which is limited).

Hello all!

Chad Arnow wrote:

Here's my question: Is this dagger (or ballock daggers of its era c. 1450) more of a civilian weapon than a military one? The blade is over 10 inches long, which might be long for a civilian weapon. Looking at effigies and brasses, rondel daggers seem to be pretty popular for military folks. It's actually not easy to find ballock daggers represented after say 1425 or so.

Hey Chad! :)

While the rondel dagger, or a variant of it with a "scent stopper" pommel, seems more common on the English brasses of the fifteenth century, the ballock dagger does occasionally show up in fifteenth century art. It seems to have remained a popular choice of dagger in Germany especially, at least according to those ballock daggers shown in art.

In Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight by David Edge and John Miles Paddock, in the chapter about the fifteenth century, there is a painting of Saint George by Roger van der Weyden, Flemish, circa 1432. If you look closely, the dagger attached to the faulds at the saint's hips appears to be a rather small ballock dagger. It has a discoid pommel with the grip tapering down to what may be two bulbous quillons. It's hard to see, because the bulbous quillons are coloured just like the rivets in the lames of the fauld, but a careful inspection of the painting shows that they are at a different angle than the rivets. I would think that the dagger could be interpreted as a ballock dagger.

There are a few other possible depictions of ballock daggers worn by armoured warriors in German art of the fifteenth century. These seem to show that it remained popular from the early fifteenth century and through at least the second quarter of the fifteenth century.

One ballock dagger appears on the effigy of Ludwig of Hutten, died 1414. It appears in a drawing in J. H. Hefner-Alteneck's Medieval Arms and Armor: A Pictorial Archive. This is not mid-fifteenth, it's early-fifteenth, but it shows a ballock dagger still being caried by an armoured warrior in the fifteenth century.

Another occurs on the tomb effigy of Kunz Haberkorn, died 1421 (see photos below). The dagger is damaged on the effigy, but it appears to have bulbous quillons like a typical ballock dagger. It is more clearly of a ballock-dagger shape in the drawing of the effigy in Hefner-Alteneck's archive. I have no reason to doubt Hefner-Alteneck's interpretation of the remnants of the dagger as looking like a ballock dagger. Look at the close-up image I posted. See where the arrow points; there are two distinct "bulbs (the top one is more distinct than the bottom).

Yet another possible ballock dagger appears on a German sculpture of an armoured warrior from circa 1435. In Vesey Norman's Arms and Armor, the sculpture is described as the tomb of Duke Ludwig of Bayern-Ingolstadt by Hans Multsher. It looks to me as if the quillons of the dagger are a bit "bulbous"; look at the line between the upper quillon and the grip. This suggests that ballock daggers were still in use by armoured warriors in Germany until at least the second quarter of the fifteenth century.

Finally, there is another Flemish example. This one is from an altar panel painted by Jan van Eyck, dated to circa 1430. One of the fully armoured warriors (the one in the foreground) wears a distinctive ballock dagger at his hip. Since this figure is in similar armour, and from a similar period and place as the painting of Saint George by Roger van der Weyden, it lends support to my interpretation of Saint George's dagger as a ballock dagger. This painting appears in Paul Martin's Arms and Armor from the 19th to the 17th Century.

There are also some surviving ballock daggers that certain sources date to the mid-fifteenth century. There is an interesting plate showing ballock daggers in Medieval Costume, Armor & Weapons by Eduard Wagner, zoroslava Drobna, and Jan Durdik. Below, I've posted the section of the plate showing ballock daggers. Number (1) is a 14th century Danish dagger from Zeitschrift fur historische Waffenkunde, 1929/1931, p. 269, pl. 2. Number (2) is a 14th century Bohemian dagger in the Prague Municipal Museum. Number (3) is a dagger dating from between 1430-50. Number (4) is a dagger dating from 1400-20. Number (5) is an English dagger from 1450-60. And number (6) is another English dagger, this time from 1440-50 (numbers 3-6 are all from European Armour III).

I know the period art isn't as late as 1450, but I hope this information was helpful just the same.

Stay safe!

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St. George by Roger van der Weyden, circa 1432.

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Effigy of Kunz Haberkorn, died 1421.

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Close-up of Haberkorn's dagger. Note the round "bulbs" for a quillon.

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German sculpture, circa 1435. Note the possible ballock dagger.

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Detail of altar panel depicting the Knights of Christ in full armour, Jan van Eyck, 1430-40

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Ballock Dagers from Plate 11, Part V of Wagner, et al.

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Richard,
Thanks for the information. I'd already looked through the Hefner-Alteneck book and some others. I was really looking for info more closely related to circa 1450.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the date of the Wallace set? Various publications date it anywhere between 1450 and 1550.

Disclaimer: Medieval and Renaissance weapons are not an area in which I have tremendous knowledge...

...but I do have some Peter Finer catalogs and have found a very similar ballock dagger that is dated to c.1470 (Peter Finer IN ARMIS ARS MMI, item 9). The date is based on the hilt form:

A Fine and Rare French or English Ballock Dagger, the silver mounts bearing shields engraved with the arms of Grandison, circa 1470

This dagger can be dated to the seconf half of the 15th century on the basis of the shape of the guard mount, formed of curious indented terminals which are probably intended to represent dragons' heads. Fully representational dragons' heads folded close down the blade appear on th ewell-known Burgundian dagger made for Johann Amerbach-Ortenberg, now in the Historisches Museum, Basel. It has been dated to the late 15th century.

The distinctive grip with large lobes and tapering profile is a feature that appears on a number of daggers which can be dated to the late 15th century. These include examples from the Laking, Keasby, and Wallace collections.

Overall length: 17 3/4"
Blade length: 12 3/8"

Please see attachment for photos.

Jonathan

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[ Download ]

Hello all!

Hey Chad! :)

I found a couple similar ballock daggers dated to the late fifteenth or early sixteenth century. Both are in Claude Blair's European & American Arms. And, both have similar down-drooping metal quillons under the "bulbs" of the wooden grip.

One Is a German ballock-knife (Blair calls them ballock-knives) of the late fifteenth century. It is, or was, in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, number 26.145.17. It's 390 mm long (about 15.35 inches). It has a larger flat, discoid pommel (Blair calls it a washer), with a greater flare toward the quillons than the Wallace collection ballock dagger, but it does have similarly-shaped down-turned metal quillons.

The other is an actual knife set, with a ballock dagger and accessories, of Johann Amerbach-Ortenburg (1430-1513). It's a Burgundian example of the late fifteenth century. The grip is of agate, of a more explicit shape (if you know what I mean) than the Wallace collection dagger. It has mounts of silver-gilt, of a similar shape to the Wallace collection dagger, but of a more decorated nature. It is, or was, in the Historisches Museum, Basel (Number 1882. 109).

Since both the daggers mentioned above have some features in common with the Wallace Collection dagger, one even being a dagger set with accessories, I think you could date the Wallace Collection dagger to the mid-late fifteenth century. It may be a possibility, anyway.

In case this is helpful at all, I'll include the general information Claude Blair penned about ballock daggers in the same work:

Claude Blair wrote:

Ballock-knife. A dagger or knife, normally worn by civilians, with a guard formed by two rounded lobes, often made in one with the wooden grip and reinforced on top with a shaped metal washer. This form - which was christened a kidney-dagger by prudish nineteenth-century antiquaries - first appeared in c. 1300 and was widely used, especially in Flanders, England and Scotland, until the early seventeenth century. The hilt was often made of dudgeon (box root) whence, in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, the whole dagger seems sometimes to have been called a dudgeon-dagger. It was probably, though not certainly, the predecessor of the Scottish dirk.

This isn't anywhere as specific as the daggers in Blair's work, but there are also a couple of ballock daggers in Sword and Hilt Weapons, in the chapter "The Renaissance Spirit" by Donald J. LaRocca, that are dated to the fifteenth century. One is roughly similar to the Wallace Collection dagger, with the small, down-drooping metallic quillons, but in excavated condition. The other is a bit different, with very small, triple "bulbs" of the hilt, and a triple-edged blade.

In a plate of drawings of daggers in The Complete Encyclopedia of Arms & Weapons, edited by Claude Blair and Leonid Tarassuk, there is a ballock dagger of the same general for as the Wallace Collection dagger (it may even be that particular one) that is dated to the second half of the fifteenth century. The caption doesn't list any more details, but the drawing is very similar to the Wallace Collection dagger. That may have been the inspiration for the illustration.

I think it may be possible that the Wallace Collection ballock dagger dates to the second half of the fifteenth century. Blair seemed to believe daggers of a similar form dated to that time period.

I hope this helped!

Stay safe!

Richard,
I have found the opposite to be true regarding 16th century ballock daggers--that's almost all I could find in my books. As far as art, here is an image of Saint Eustace by Durer from 1503, and he has what appears to be a nice ballock dagger hanging at his right hip:

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Some of Manouchehr's pictures from the Musée de l'Armée in Paris show ballock daggers from the mid to late 15th century. Looking at the blade cross-sections, they appear to be military daggers more than civilian weapons.

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Here's the placard for many of the daggers he posted: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/download.php?id=13786

Cool stuff!

Does anyone else have any thoughts on whether the Wallace Collection ballock dagger would be a battlefield weapon or not?

Chad;

Avoiding getting stuck on definition of words i.e. " battlefield weapons " I would think that if a blade type that would seem like a good backup weapon for armoured combat is used with a ballock styled hilt, I tend to think there would be no distinction as far as practical use is concerned.

If a rondel was only worn with armour and rarely worn with civilian clothes there might be a cultural / legalistic prohibition to wear one " in everyday carry ". The ballock seems to have been very O.K. for civilian wear but might also have been used in war ? Not, sure if these distinctions actually were true or just a modern interpretation. ( Assuming that this interpretation is actually more than in just my mind based on the fact that we are asking the question ??? )

Oh, and I see many blades that would work as a rondel blade also being used in ballock daggers.

Also, some ballock single edge blades that look more general purpose knives that could be pressed into service as weapons or used to attack a roast chicken. :lol:

Gentlemen,

Is it correct to say that rondel daggers were used only on battlefields? Or were they also used as civilian daggers?

Kind regards

Manouchehr

Hi Folks !

this is my second entry in this forum, and i just wanted to say thanks for your interesting replys...

i live in Innsbruck austria, and we have a rich culture in Late medieval warfare...(Maximilian I). i investigated all "roundel daggers" in my area. in german they are called "Scheibendolch" or diskdagger...and everyone have a pure thrustigblade to penetrate platearmour. and every bollockdagger i saw have one or twosided cuttingblades not very effective on thrusting on the battlefield at this times (ca.1450 to 1490). so my thoughts on this are bullockdaggers were a kind of everyday allpurpose tool or knive (sure could be used to defend or attack) and a scheibendolch was a pure battlefield weapon...

so these are my observations, what do you think?


Andreas Auer

Innsbruck
Tirol

I find it interesting that Talhoffer shows ballock daggers in his 1443 dagger section, but in the 1459 dagger version shows rondel daggers in use. These are both unarmored single combat, same author, 15 years difference in time. Perhaps this reflects a change in local popularity between the styles in the mid 15th century? Does not seem to be a battlefield vs civilian difference in context though.

Jeff Ross

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Talhoffer 1443

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Talhoffer 1459