Hello,

Is there anybody here that can tell me about this dagger?

Best ..

Mke

Here is a close up image of the hilt. This is a very high quality dagger.

I have decided to remove the images from this thread...

Any information at all will be greatly appreciated. Or referals to reference materials pretaining to this and other daggers like this one...

Could you provide measurements on the dagger?

Thanks.

It's a holbein dagger or baselard which first became popular in the 15th century. As to the quality or authenticity of this piece I would not even venture a guess without it in hand. It certainly looks nice. Was there something specifically you wished to know?

Edited: Ahh I see that there is. Well I will look in my book of hallmarks tonight but honestly do not hold out a terrible amount of hope there. To be honest this mark looks more like a decorative rather then makers marke to me. The other thing to remember is that the holbein dagger (especially one in a plainer sheath like this) was a common soldiers weapon so the chance of it being made by a prestigious and thereby easily identifieable maker are rather small...

Last image of the cape fitting area. The panels in the scabbard are leather, Very old leather. The scabbard seems to be primarily wood with iron fittings.




.

Thanks guys,

Russ,

Can you give me an idea as to it's general date of origin? Assuming it's authentic. 1700s?

The dagger is tight , no slop at all. It fits into the scabbard perfectly and only one way. It won't go in properly if you turn the blade 180 degrees. The grip is a hardwood of some sort and in excellent condition.

When I first saw your Holbein dagger, I immediately thought "Third Reich". Here is what Frederick Wilkinson has to say about the Nazi Holbeins of WWII (from Swords and Hilt Weapons, p.129-130):

"With the advent of the Nazis in 1933 it occured to the craftsmen of Solingen that if the Party could be persuaded that swords and daggers would enhance the status of its members, a whole new and very large market could be created....

First consideration was given to the SA or Brownshirts.... By 1930 the SA had more than 100,000 members, a sizeable market indeed. A member of the Solingen Trade School, a Professor Woenne, was commisioned to design a suitable dagger for them and came up with a weapon that was a simplified version of the 'Swiss' or 'Holbein' dagger popular in the sixteenth century. The blade of the proposed SA dagger was leaf-shaped and engraved with the motto 'Alles fur Deutschland'. The brown wooden hilt was rather like a capital I, swelling gracefully at the centre and decorated wit the Party symbol. It was to be worn in a plain brown painted metal sheath worn on a belt. Hitler approved the design and the first batch of SA daggers was ordered in february 1934.

Hitler the ordered that the SS should have a similar dagger, but with a black grip and sheath to match the feared black uniform.... The design of the SS daggers underwent minor changes and different grades evolved for officers and for presentation.

A dagger with a mixed combination of colours, a brown hilt and a black painted scabbard, was worn by members of the Nationalsozialistisches Kraftfahrkorps (Party Motor Transport Corps). Another variant was worn by students of the National Political Education Institute.... Their dagger was like the SA dagger but had a plain wooden grip , a blade with a different motto, and a sheath similar to the standard bayonet scabbard."

Given the large numbers of daggers produced in Solingen in Nazi Germany, I would personally lean towards a 20th century date of manufacture rather than15th century or 16th century. (But I am hardly an expert on period Holbein daggers or Third Reich militaria, so who knows?)

Here is one example:
[ Linked Image ]

Try a Google image search for "Third Reich Dagger" or "Nazi Dagger" and one can see more examples.

Regards,
Jonathan

If have decided to remove the images..

Another image showing size difference. Under an eye loupe, the brown material in the Holbein scabbard center panels is clearly very old leather. Also these areas are non-magnetic..

In this image, you can clearly see the difference in blade dimensions.. Interestingly this is a comparison between the very early Swiss Holbein dagger and a very late period Third Reich RZM (1944) marked , SA dagger made by E&F Horster.

Interesting, the plot thickens... no comment back from the guy I know yet. How many variations are there of the German WWII era dagger?

Another thought, do you know that the scabbard is contemporary with the dagger? We know that swords might go through several scabbards during their working life. The scabbard shown does look old, and may well be, but it could be the 2nd or 3rd scabbard that has been made for this dagger.

No easy answers unfortunately. I'm hopeful that you are actually the proud owner of a 15th century piece. If I could ask where did you actually acquire it?

There are many variations of the Third Reich party form dagger.

SA, SS, NSKK, NPEA, each branch having Leader examples with chains, marine examples, ect. But all are almost exactly the same dimensions. The only differences are the grip insignia and colors. And blade mottos. Some Leader examples have damascus blades and leather covered scabbards.

Great comparison shots--thanks! Were you guaranteed that the dagger is 15th century? In Logan Thompson's Daggers and Bayonets he indicates that this form of dagger was in use as late as 1600. The accompanying photo in the book is of a 19th century copy. I suppose that is another possibility. (Although it would be more fun if it is an actual Renaissance dagger!)

Jonathan

Hi Jonathan,

This dagger was represented as an original circa 1700s Swiss (Holbein) Hunting dagger.

On the front of the scabbard, about two thirds up, are two small oval openings for a small knife and fork, I was told. They are now gone to time. If this dagger were a copy, I would think the little utensils would still be in place. Who knows.

All I know is, whoever made this dagger really cared about what they were doing, and it wasn't recently..

Is it possible for you to post the image in the book? Thank you for the excellent link!

Thanks,

Mike